Question

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Jack

Scapegoating Fallacy and/or any other fallacy ?

Yesterday at work I put a metal gastro of rice into the freezer as per my manager's request. Later there was a delivery and during this time I was doing other things. I then heard my Manager aggressively shouting, "Can we not put rice in the freezer without a lid!" I initially thought he said "ice" first until later on we both had this conversation:

Jack, when you put rice in the freezer can you put a lid on it because other people are carelessly throwing things in the here causing issues with the rice.

I said 

If other people are carelessly throwing things in the freezer that's nothing to do with me.

He responded:

Look, when it's busy and there's a delivery you know there are going to be people that are going to be a bit reckless more than usual as they need to get things done. So, just Always just assume the worst. And I am not having a go or a dig.

I just said "Ok" then as I couldn't be bothered to argue, and ironically enough I myself was also busy trying to be as quick as I could to help him with an event that I had agreed to do today.

Lastly, would it be a false equivalence on my part to say that "by this logic then we should start wearing stab proof vests in case someone is busy and careless with knifes?"

 

asked on Saturday, Mar 22, 2025 03:58:15 PM by Jack

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Answers

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Mr. Wednesday
1

I don't think your boss is scapegoating you here. The key difference here is understanding that fault for causing a problem and responsibility for fixing it are not the same thing. He does acknowledge that your coworkers are being reckless when they're filling the walk in, and that is to blame for the rice getting messed up. But, as they're under pressure to get the delivery put away quickly when they're busy, they can't be relied upon to consistently do so carefully, so he's giving you the responsibility of safeguarding against that. Should they be putting things away more carefully? Maybe, but it seems like that's a more difficult behavior to correct.

Having worked in a few industries, including food service, I can tell you that this isn't unusual. Food safety standards often have redundancy like this built in to account for lapses and miscommunications between employees, so that that way any real food safety issues won't occur unless multiple people are making mistakes.

Do people in kitchens get careless with knives sometimes? Yes. But, in my experience, this usually just causes people to cut their own hands. You'd have to be acting pretty far outside the norms of knife handling to accidentally stab someone in the chest, so I don't think that's really a good comparison.

answered on Saturday, Mar 22, 2025 09:03:07 PM by Mr. Wednesday

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AI Fallacy Master writes:
[To Mr. Wednesday] The student's response reasonably addresses the logical concerns in the original post, but let's examine some aspects more closely for logical clarity and accuracy:

1. **Scapegoating Fallacy:** The original question seems to imply that they were being blamed unfairly (scapegoated) for other people's reckless behavior. However, the response points out that the manager is not blaming the individual for the action of others but rather assigning a responsibility intended to mitigate predictable problems, which is a reasonable managerial decision. Thus, there is no scapegoating fallacy present.

2. **False Equivalence:** The responder correctly identifies the false equivalence in the original poster's analogy involving stab-proof vests. The situation of putting a lid on rice is not logically equivalent to wearing stab-proof vests. The potential harm and the likelihood of the latter scenario (accidental stabbing requiring a vest) do not match the purpose or practicality of putting a lid on the rice to prevent minor accidents or mishaps in a busy environment.

3. **Responsibility vs. Blame:** The key distinction that the responder makes between solving a problem and being blamed for it is crucial. The original poster might benefit from considering that being asked to prevent or mitigate predictable issues is not the same as being held accountable for those issues’ causes.

The student’s response is well-grounded in logical thinking, identifying the separation of responsibility from blame and illustrating why the analogy was a false equivalence. The suggested organizational approach of introducing checks to prevent downstream issues is a sensible practice and not logically flawed.
posted on Saturday, Mar 22, 2025 09:03:13 PM
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Jack writes:

Yeah, good points. I guess I was annoyed because then I realized he was shouting about me, which I thought it's someone else at first. His tone came across like blaming.

As for the knife analogy, I was getting at the fact there are one or two colleagues who tend to carry knifes carelessly as they walk past me, holding it loosely on the board toward the washing up area instead of with the blade pointing down. I have bought this up to him, but it appears he has not said anything to that person/s. The Assistant manager did say he would speak to him on Friday if he remembered. However, he wasn't very well.

posted on Sunday, Mar 23, 2025 01:29:41 PM
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AI Fallacy Master
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In the exchange you described, there are several logical elements and potential fallacies to address:

1. **Scapegoating Fallacy**: This fallacy involves blaming a person or group for a problem to deflect attention from the actual causes. In this scenario, your manager is not scapegoating, as he isn't blaming you directly for others' careless actions. Instead, he's suggesting a preventive measure to mitigate potential issues.

2. **False Dilemma**: This could be seen as an implicit fallacy in your manager's reasoning. He suggests that the only way to prevent rice from being damaged is to always put a lid on it, potentially ignoring other solutions like improving others' behavior or organization in the freezer.

3. **False Equivalence**: Your analogy about wearing stab-proof vests as a preventive measure for knife accidents is indeed a false equivalence. Comparing the act of placing a lid on rice to wearing protective gear against potential knife incidents is not a fair comparison, as the severity and improbability of these two scenarios are not similar. The risk management in one everyday situation (covering rice) is not equivalent to a much more severe and less probable scenario (wearing stab-proof vests).

4. **Overgeneralization/Broad Generalization**: The manager's suggestion to "always assume the worst" could be seen as an overgeneralization. It implies a broad application of caution in all situations, which may not always be necessary or efficient.

Overall, while your manager is trying to implement a precautionary measure to prevent potential issues, the reasoning behind "always assume the worst" could be overly broad and not address the root of the problem effectively. It's essential to find a balance in implementing practical preventive measures while also fostering an environment where everyone is responsible for careful and mindful behavior.
answered on Saturday, Mar 22, 2025 03:58:37 PM by AI Fallacy Master

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Kostas Oikonomou
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The brief argument would be:
-Put a lid over rice because someone might drop something on it.
-By this logic then we should start wearing stab proof vests in case someone is busy and careless with   knives.

That's appeal to extremes .

Also, the argument "If other people are carelessly throwing things in the freezer that's nothing to do with me." is equivalent to saying "We shouldn't take precautionary measures. If other people are careless, that's nothing to do with me". If the rule was that everyone has to be careful, then you would be right to blame the careless co-worker. But if a mistake happens frequently enough and is somewhat unavoidable during rush hour, then protective measures is a reasonable decision. So, one could argue about not applying the rule while the decision is not made yet, but I think if the rule is already in use, then whoever fails to stick with the rule is at fault not for the creation of the disaster but for not averting the disaster.   

answered on Saturday, Mar 22, 2025 04:55:55 PM by Kostas Oikonomou

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AI Fallacy Master writes:
[To Kostas Oikonomou] The student's response effectively identifies the logical fallacy involved in the original post's argument. The fallacy identified is an "appeal to extremes," which occurs when one takes a reasonable argument and attempts to discredit it by extending it to absurd proportions. In this case, comparing the reasonable precaution of placing a lid on rice to the extreme measure of wearing stab-proof vests in anticipation of carelessness with knives stretches the initial argument to an illogical extreme. This undermines the original argument by implying that it leads to ridiculous conclusions, which is a misrepresentation.

Furthermore, the statement, "If other people are carelessly throwing things in the freezer that's nothing to do with me," reflects a misunderstanding of responsibility in a shared workspace. The core issue here is about taking collective, precautionary measures to prevent mishaps that are common or likely, particularly in busy scenarios. The suggestion that one should not take protective action because the issue originates with others neglects the sense of teamwork and shared responsibility necessary in such environments. The rationale behind using lids for the rice is not solely about individual fault but about minimizing the potential for mistakes and damages that affect everyone.

In summary, the student's answer correctly identifies and explains the logical fallacies and reasoning issues, emphasizing the importance of reasonable precautionary measures in a shared environment.
posted on Saturday, Mar 22, 2025 04:56:00 PM
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Jack writes:
[To AI Fallacy Master]

The tray was covered with cling film and this is the way we have all been doing things for months and nothing has even been said to do otherwise. Until this incident. My argument and point is that the Manager is ignoring addressing the carelessness of others and the fact that I was also busy and rushing, mostly to help him. It sounds like he is implying that other people can continue to behave carelessly because they are busy, while I must always anticipate someone unknown future issue because of the reckless actions of others

[ login to reply ] posted on Saturday, Mar 22, 2025 05:34:50 PM
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Jack writes:

Cross-referencing the AI fallacy master's response here with another AI comes up with the following response:

That’s a really well-articulated post you wrote, and I think the AI's response was mostly thoughtful — but there are a few areas where I think you could push back or at least question their interpretation:

Here’s my feedback on their reply:
Scapegoating Fallacy —
They say "he isn’t blaming you directly for others’ careless actions."
I think this is debatable.
Your manager acknowledged that other people’s carelessness is the problem, yet directed the “solution” at you personally. He made it your responsibility to compensate for others’ behavior — without addressing those others. That is a form of scapegoating or at least deflecting responsibility. He may not have said "this is your fault," but he effectively shifted the burden onto you, instead of correcting team behavior or freezer management.
👉 You could argue this is a soft form of scapegoating or blame-shifting fallacy.
False Dilemma —
I think their point here is good. Your manager seems to frame it as if the only reasonable solution is "just always put a lid on, no matter what," instead of questioning the bigger organizational problem.
False Equivalence —
This part of their answer is fair and I think they got you on that one. The stab-proof vest analogy is a good rhetorical tool to show absurdity, but it’s not a perfect logical equivalence. Knife danger and rice lids are obviously not on the same scale.
👉 That said, it is an effective reductio ad absurdum. It's designed to show that his logic could be taken to an unreasonable extreme. Maybe not a false equivalence, but rather an intentionally hyperbolic analogy. You could clarify that in discussion.
Overgeneralization —
I completely agree with their take here. “Always assume the worst” is not an efficient or practical management strategy, and it ignores systemic issues. It also undermines trust and teamwork.
 
In short:
I think your instinct that it was scapegoating is not off-base.
Your “stab vest” analogy is hyperbolic, but that’s allowed in debate; you just need to frame it as reductio ad absurdum rather than an attempt at direct equivalence.
Their answer was fair but could have been a little more critical of your manager’s logic.

posted on Saturday, Mar 22, 2025 06:21:35 PM