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mnac87

Extra-terrestrial Life and Defining Existence

 

You cannot prove the absence of something never before detected.

This assertion is part of a larger debate I've come across as to whether or not extra-terrestrial life exists.

On the surface, it seems to make sense -- we don’t know everything, so wouldn't it be a hasty generalization to say that extra-terrestrial life doesn’t exist? But then again, couldn't this argument be used as justification for the possible existence of pixies, leprechauns, sea monsters, Santa Claus, whatever extraordinary entity you can come up with? I'm at a loss as to what conclusions to draw from this.

What are your thoughts? Is this argument a form of fallacious reasoning? If so, what is it?

asked on Tuesday, Aug 03, 2021 06:54:40 PM by mnac87

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TrappedPrior (RotE) writes:

If X is detected, then...does that not mean X exists?

Unless I'm not getting the question.

 

posted on Tuesday, Aug 03, 2021 11:10:06 PM

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Bo Bennett, PhD
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The statement is accurate, at least I cannot see any flaws with it. We cannot prove that X does not exist if proving the absence of X requires complete knowledge of the universe. In fact, if disproving X requires any knowledge we don't have, we can't do it. For example, if we claim there is a the Lochness Monster is in the lake, the only way to disprove is to have complete knowledge of the lake (that is, be able to search every inch of the lake). The only thing this means is that we cannot prove these things don't exist; it is in no way evidence that they do exist.

Those who believe in magic often attempt to use this line of "reasoning" to add credibility to their claim, resulting in the argument from ignorance . "You can't prove that leprechauns don't exist, so this is evidence that they do exist!"

answered on Wednesday, Aug 04, 2021 08:07:28 AM by Bo Bennett, PhD

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mnac87 writes:

Well, here's where I see a flaw, and do correct me if I'm wrong in laying this out.

The one who made that original statement is proposing (or, at the very least, suggesting) that extra-terrestrial life might exist, and we just haven't detected it yet. But doesn't that assume that such life exists in the first place? It's basically begging the question.

Ignoring the assumption, the proposition results in three categories of existence (the "defining existence" part of my question):

  1. That which exists and therefore manifests
  2. That which doesn’t exist and therefore doesn’t manifest (aka the Null Category)
  3. That which exists and has yet to manifest (in this case, extra-terrestrial life)

The biggest problem I see here is that there’s no functional difference between categories (2) and (3). And if we can’t say that category (3) doesn’t exist, then the logical conclusion would be that we can’t say that category (2) doesn’t exist, either. In short, we can’t say that things which don’t exist “don’t exist.” Put more simply, we can’t call anything “nonexistent.”

Using this rationale, one could use this as justification for the possible existence of any extraordinary entity one can come up with, including the ones I originally listed. That's the problem I have with the original statement -- because you can't define something into existence strictly using logic.

posted on Wednesday, Aug 04, 2021 05:15:24 PM
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Bo Bennett, PhD writes:
[To mnac87]

Suggesting the possibility of ET life is not a problem. It wouldn't be begging the question for a couple reasons, but mostly because there is no argument (there is no reason given, just a claim).

In many questions of late on this forum, we seem to be dealing with epistemology vs. ontology, or what we know vs. what is. By "manifests" I assume you mean "is known to us." #2 and #3 are different ontologically, but in both cases we don't know about the existence. But #3 is a claim one can never rationally make: the justification we would have for claiming it exists can only come from it "manifesting," through physical evidence or even mathematics.

I think the problem you might be having with the original statement is a conclusion that you might be assuming: You cannot prove the absence of something never before detected, therefore aliens exist. This would be fallacious. However, if the conclusion (unwritten) is therefore, we cannot rule out the possibility of alien life, then this is good reasoning.

[ login to reply ] posted on Wednesday, Aug 04, 2021 09:11:55 PM
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Arlo
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This situation shares some similarities with Dynamo, the magician (from https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/questions/iW8ddAY8/what_is_the_fallacy_here.html ).

With Dynamo, the argument was essentially:  Dynamo didn't offer a natural explanation for his demonstrations and the reader couldn't come up with a natural explanation either, therefore, there is no natural explanation and therefore it must be all supernatural – the notion being that the reluctance of one individual to provide an explanation and inability of another individual to offer one must mean that there is no natural explanation.

The situation here with extra-terrestrial live is much the same: our lack of evidence of extra-terrestrial life must mean that it does not exist – it just means that we can't prove it DOES exist.

Each situation is an example of proving non-existence or attempting to prove a negative.  Our inability to prove the negative doesn't demonstrate the opposite.

With respect to pixies, Santa and the rest, we have a weak analogy .  The examples are similar in that they represent elements that folks accept on faith rather than because of evidence; they are dissimilar in that we can find counter evidence to demonstrate that those examples don't make sense.  For example, there's lots to argue against a chubby guy in a red suit sliding up and down multiple chimneys delivering gifts worldwide ... all on the same night.  (If nothing else, we'd need to explain why FedEx, UPS, and the rest haven't invested in a fleet of sleighs to replace their aircraft and trucks!)

Then, of course, we have a definitional problem to avoid the ambiguity fallacy and equivocation .  I suspect someone who has narrowly escaped a shark attack might suggest that sea monsters actually do exist!  Also, with vehicles like Curiosity determining that ancient Mars was most likely an entirely habitable place for microbial life way back when, the field of astrobiology could well be on its way to demonstrating that some form life did exist there, but I suspect microorganisms aren't what the initial debate was about – hence the need for clear definition of terms.

answered on Wednesday, Aug 04, 2021 10:08:27 AM by Arlo

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Dr. Richard
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Looks to me like a simple attempt to prove a negative, which is a fallacy. You can disprove evidence of something, but you cannot prove a negative,

answered on Wednesday, Aug 04, 2021 12:38:54 PM by Dr. Richard

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TrappedPrior (RotE) writes:

Technically you mean, 'one cannot prove non-existence', which really means, 'one cannot prove universal non-existence'.

You can't prove universal non-existence, because you would need to observe the universal set - that is, all of the members of that set to have ever possibly existed - which is impossible (e.g. in the set 'swans', you'd need to not only know every swan that exists, but their characteristics too, in order to disprove the idea of a 'black swan'.)

You  can  prove a local non-existence (e.g. there are no members of a specific set that share a property - an instance would be, "there are no black swans in my yard ") by observing that a set is empty. This is the empirical way of proving a negative.

You can also prove a negative statement logically through obversion. To obvert you switch the subject and predicate, then negate the predicate.

So; "every S is non-P" becomes "no S is P." Since obversion is truth-preserving, if the obvertend (every S is non-P) is true, then the obverse (no S is P) is true. You have proven a negative!

Sorry for the long-winded comment. I just like obversion, and 'you cannot prove a negative' is a common saying.

posted on Wednesday, Aug 04, 2021 02:22:10 PM
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Bo Bennett, PhD writes:
[To Rationalissimus of the Elenchus]

You can't prove universal  non-existence, because you would need to observe the universal set - that is, all of the members of that set to have ever possibly existed - which is impossible.

This is precisely why, in the other thread, when someone says "there is no natural explanation" they are simply saying they don't know of any. They have not or cannot prove that no natural explanation exists, which makes concluding a "supernatural" explanation (what ever that is exactly) fallacious (argument from ignorance ). Claiming that the person is not acting fallaciously because, logically, "no natural explanation" necessitates a "supernatural" one, is ignoring all reason (i.e., assuming the knows the complete set of all candidate explanations—and also assuming an explanation must exist). I am writing this because I am frustrated that I cannot communicate this to our theist members.

[ login to reply ] posted on Wednesday, Aug 04, 2021 02:39:04 PM
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Dr. Richard writes:
[To Rationalissimus of the Elenchus]

One cannot prove universal non-existence because that would be to prove "something" (non-existence) existed, or non-existence = existence.  Nothing (non-existence) is not a different kind if "something." Nothing (in this context) does not exist,

[ login to reply ] posted on Thursday, Aug 05, 2021 01:24:50 AM
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David Blomstrom
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"You cannot prove the absence of something never before detected."

This isn't really an answer so much as a little perspective.

You mentioned pixies. Of course, there's no evidence that such things exist anywhere.

But extraterrestrial life is a little different. Subtract "extraterrestrial," and you're left with life. The amazing thing is, we have abundant evidence of life - right here on Earth.

So we know that "life" is not only possible, it's a fact. The next step is to try and figure out if life exist anywhere else but Earth. This leads us to a couple interesting options:

1. Evolution is a natural process, similar to gravity, therefore life has a tendency to evolve on planets with certain characteristics.

2. The evolution of life on Earth is a fluke; it couldn't possibly happen again, therefore there is no life on the trillions of planets in the universe other than Earth. (Personally, I think this is as far-fetched as arguing that life on other planets is common.)

3. If you believe in God, then you know God created life on Earth because the Bible says so. However, he didn't create life anywhere else, because....well what do you know? The Bible doesn't comment on that one way or another.

answered on Wednesday, Aug 04, 2021 03:14:25 PM by David Blomstrom

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DanJo
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If you have a closed shoebox that may or may not contain a whoopee cushion you can prove its absence (or presence), though it hasn't previously been detected, by opening the box.  This seems to suggest the statement above needs refinement in order to be reasonable. 

When you have a hard to examine area (or dimension) in which the object may or may not exist then the statement becomes reasonable though, perhaps, not very useful.

answered on Thursday, Aug 05, 2021 01:09:41 AM by DanJo

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