Question

...

argument for God?

I know this is a very controversial topic and I hope no one takes it as an attack. That being said, how would you respond to a circular argument or to someone who won't/can't see his or her argument is as such?

I had a conversation with someone and the topic of religion came up which eventually led to the question of "do you believe in God, yes or no and why?" and this was his response:

"I do believe in God, because the Koran (he's Muslim) mentions a lot of scientific facts and predictions that we only knew about recently; and there's no way for anyone to have known these things back in 578 AD (approx)."

asked on Wednesday, Nov 17, 2021 10:16:01 PM by

Top Categories Suggested by Community

Comments

Want to get notified of all questions as they are asked? Update your mail preferences and turn on "Instant Notification."

Eat Meat... Or Don't.

Roughly 95% of Americans don’t appear to have an ethical problem with animals being killed for food, yet all of us would have a serious problem with humans being killed for food. What does an animal lack that a human has that justifies killing the animal for food but not the human?

As you start to list properties that the animal lacks to justify eating them, you begin to realize that some humans also lack those properties, yet we don’t eat those humans. Is this logical proof that killing and eating animals for food is immoral? Don’t put away your steak knife just yet.

In Eat Meat… Or Don’t, we examine the moral arguments for and against eating meat with both philosophical and scientific rigor. This book is not about pushing some ideological agenda; it’s ultimately a book about critical thinking.

Get 20% off this book and all Bo's books*. Use the promotion code: websiteusers

* This is for the author's bookstore only. Applies to autographed hardcover, audiobook, and ebook.

Get the Book

Answers

...
Dr. Richard
2

You ask how to respond. I suggest the manner of Peter Boghassian. He has two books that should be of interest to you. One is “A Manual for Creating Atheists,” and the other is “How to Have Impossible Conversations.” 

Also, keep in mind the problems associated with cognitive dissonance. Festinger’s Question comes from his famous 1956 book, When Prophecy Fails. Suppose (1) an individual believes something with his whole heart and soul; (2) he has taken irrevocable actions because of it; and (3) he is then presented with evidence, unequivocal and undeniable evidence, evidence he himself fully accepts as true, that his first belief is wrong. Festinger’s question is: What will happen? 

Keep in mind, the most difficult beliefs for people to examine are those beliefs that have been (1) held for a long time; (2) adopted before the age of reason; and (3) most often repeated. Then add backfire, and you may want to give up the discussion.

answered on Thursday, Nov 18, 2021 10:07:50 AM by Dr. Richard

Dr. Richard Suggested These Categories

Comments

...
Bo Bennett, PhD
2

The argument could be stated as such:

p1. Only God could author/inspire a book with a lot of accurate predictions.
p2. The Koran/Bible/[any other holy book] has a lot of accurate predictions.
C. Therefore, God authored/inspired the mentioned book (i.e., God exists).

This is a valid argument. The problem is with the soundness (i.e., the premises are highly questionable). I wouldn't call this argument circular, however. I am sure you can find some excellent resources debunking this argument on Google.

answered on Thursday, Nov 18, 2021 06:23:19 AM by Bo Bennett, PhD

Bo Bennett, PhD Suggested These Categories

Comments

...
0
account no longer exists writes:

But isn't the first premise problematic? since it assumes that god exists in the first place to author/inspire a book which is exactly what he's trying to prove?

posted on Thursday, Nov 18, 2021 07:37:54 AM
...
1
Bo Bennett, PhD writes:
[To adam]

The first premise is certainly problematic, but not for circularity. It could be reworded to say, "Only a being with infinite knowledge..." or something like that. "God" is just shorthand for such a being. We are essentially saying that if Y then X must be the case.... it is Y that is providing evidence for X. What theists are arguing is that "God" is the "best explanation" for some unknown phenomena. I get what you are saying... the idea is that one can't use X as an explanation until X is demonstrated/proven. This is basically a conversation stopper because in the theist worldview, God is demonstrated through DNA, "creation," the Bible, trees, sunsets, finding lost keys or good parking spots.

[ login to reply ] posted on Thursday, Nov 18, 2021 08:00:36 AM
...
0
account no longer exists writes:
[To Bo Bennett, PhD]

Thank you for taking the time to answer and clarify, but this only produces more questions, at least for me. First, can't I use this same logic to "prove" anything I want? another problem arises when questioning the truth of the first premise. How do you know that God inspired the bible? just because it has predictions that are true doesn't mean it came from God, think Nostradamus for example

[ login to reply ] posted on Thursday, Nov 18, 2021 08:43:43 AM
...
1
Bo Bennett, PhD writes:
[To adam]

These are all excellent questions, and questions worthy of mentioning in debate. I am just trying to stick with the form of the argument itself and fallacies contained within. The problems with the argument are in the poor premises and, as you mention, the many assumptions or claims not properly demonstrated. Any theist worthy of debate would understand that the atheist won't accept claims such as "God must have written the Koran because of predictions." Their failure is not unpacking their premises. They need to get the atheist to that premise with other arguments/premises first. These kinds of assumptions are fine in arguments where both parties accept the assumptions contained within. For example, a creationist and a theistic evolutionist can get away with many theistic assumptions in premises.

[ login to reply ] posted on Thursday, Nov 18, 2021 08:52:36 AM
...
richard smith
1

"I do believe in God, because the Koran (he's Muslim) mentions a lot of scientific facts and predictions that we only knew about recently; and there's no way for anyone to have known these things back in 578 AD (approx)." - I would say it is an opinion

answered on Thursday, Nov 18, 2021 09:34:02 AM by richard smith

richard smith Suggested These Categories

Comments

...
richard smith
0

It is all of these : weak argument, unsupported claim, and opinion. There's no circular reasoning involved, so no logical fallacies as such.

We have the same problem with the Bible - there are numerous predictions/prophecies which have failed, therefore could not be the "word" of an omniscient God.

Also, the Goddist fails to identify even a single scientific fact or prediction, so at that point some clarification is necessary, therefore the argument is really only half-made (weak).

answered on Thursday, Nov 18, 2021 03:54:22 PM by richard smith

richard smith Suggested These Categories

Comments

...
GoblinCookie
0

The main weakness of this is actually the claim that we 'only knew about the scientific facts recently'.  If they appear in the Koran, it strongly implies we knew about them before 'nowadays', indeed at the time that the Koran was written. 

The two claims are directly in contradiction, it cannot be in the Koran and also not be known about until nowadays because the Koran wasn't written nowadays and leaves a 'paper trail'.

answered on Saturday, Nov 27, 2021 06:54:11 AM by GoblinCookie

GoblinCookie Suggested These Categories

Comments