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Daniel

Is there a flaw in reasoning here?

A: "Our universe as we know it, arose by natural means, or eternally pre-existed."

B : "No, it is so complex, it must have been created by God."

A : "If you try to find a solution for a complexity that you can't yet explain or understand, then it makes no sense to offer as a solution something of even greater complexity that you understand even less. Not only are you no nearer a solution to the initial problem, you have simply added another greater problem."

asked on Sunday, Oct 24, 2021 05:45:27 PM by Daniel

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Daniel writes:

I think it's fairly well known that theists do not propose that God is of greater complexity than what he creates. The theist claim is that God is simple rather than complex. Perhaps those who argue in this way believe that it is not possible for something simple to give rise to something more complex than itself, so they always insist that any creator God must be more complex than the creation. But if that is the case, how did the great complexity of life arise from the simplicity of non-living matter in their own paradigm? If the complex can only arise from the more complex, doesn't this refute evolution as well?

posted on Tuesday, Oct 26, 2021 04:11:46 PM

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Answers

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Dr. Richard
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The statement: “No, it is so complex, it must have been created by God.”

In essence, B is saying it (the universe) is unknowable because it is so complex. While the discussion could easily revolve around the Argument from Ignorance (appeal to ignorance, argumentum ad ignorantiam), because it assumes a claim is true (or false) because it has not been proven false (true) or cannot be proven false (true) or the Argument from Incredulity, (the Divine Fallacy), which is “I cannot imagine how this could be true, therefore it must be false.” But I think a deeper analysis is in order.

To be unknowable is different from unknown. Unknown merely means something not known at present or not known to you. But unknowable means that which can never be known. Unknowable is that which, by its nature, cannot be known. 

The first hurdle is to define both the universe and God. Beyond that, to focus only on the universe aspect, they must explain how do they know the universe is “so complex?” To claim this, they already know something about the universe: it is so complex. Yet to know something about the complexity is to have knowledge, and that alone contradicts the proposition. Beyond that, they have to adduce evidence to support the proposition. The old Burden of Proof rule rears its reasonable head again. 

answered on Monday, Oct 25, 2021 11:44:57 AM by Dr. Richard

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Bo Bennett, PhD
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A: "Our universe as we know it, arose by natural means, or eternally pre-existed." 

Unsupported claim. Why not created by alien? We don't know the possibilities, so we can't necessarily call it a false dilemma , but we also can't claim those as the only two options.

B : "No, it is so complex, it must have been created by God." 

Another unsupported claim (and unreasonable).

A : "If you try to find a solution...

Except for the believers in magic (or gods that use magic), the magic is a presupposition that needs no explanation. To them, this won't be convincing, but to a science-minded individual that seeks explanation (not taking things on "faith") it does make sense.

answered on Sunday, Oct 24, 2021 09:37:59 PM by Bo Bennett, PhD

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TrappedPrior (RotE)
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B : "No, it is so complex, it must have been created by God."

This does not follow. Something may be complex. That only means it's multifaceted and probably hard to understand intuitively, maybe even at all. It doesn't imply Big G put it together anymore than it implies Cthulhu did.

I've said 'weak argument' because this needs to be fleshed out more.

A : "If you try to find a solution for a complexity that you can't yet explain or understand, then it makes no sense to offer as a solution something of even greater complexity that you understand even less. Not only are you no nearer a solution to the initial problem, you have simply added another greater problem."

I'm guessing the 'complexity that you [person B] cannot yet explain' is the origin of the universe, and the solution of 'even greater complexity' is God...but I'm not fully understanding this part.

answered on Sunday, Oct 24, 2021 09:08:18 PM by TrappedPrior (RotE)

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account no longer exists writes:

"I'm guessing the 'complexity that you [person B] cannot yet explain' is the origin of the universe, and the solution of 'even greater complexity' is God...but I'm not fully understanding this part."

Meaning, that rational methodology would be to try to break down hard-to-understand complexity into  steps of simplicity which are easier to understand (origins of the universe). You can't do that if you simply add something of greater complexity (God) which cannot be broken down into steps of simplicity, and is impossible to understand anyway. 

posted on Monday, Oct 25, 2021 08:35:11 AM
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TrappedPrior (RotE) writes:
[To Jim]

Ahhh. I get it. Thanks.

Yep, my answer would be the same.

[ login to reply ] posted on Monday, Oct 25, 2021 11:47:44 AM
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Shawn
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B : "No, it is so complex, it must have been created by God.

The complexity argument to support the basis for the existnce of god has a long and solid basis in philisophical discussions and literature and, as far as I am convderned, it is never been refuted. 

answered on Monday, Oct 25, 2021 07:44:19 AM by Shawn

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account no longer exists writes:

Hi Shawn - Philosophical discussions can be about anything at all, no matter how complex or absurd. It's the application of logic and critical thinking, so the "God" question is nothing special in that respect.

Again, invoking something of greater complexity than the complexity you are trying to explain initially, only adds another unknown.

It's a bit like spending huge amounts of time, money and resources on a highly complex equation in theoretical physics, where "x" is the unknown value.

Instead of spending more time and money, and hiring more brains, someone suggests the answer is "y".

So now, not only do you still not know what "x" is, whilst "y" could be the answer, you now have 2 unknowns instead of 1.

posted on Monday, Oct 25, 2021 03:26:12 PM