Question

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alex

Controversial Logic questions regarding Ukraine

if this is too controversial and it gets taken down I’ll understand: 

I can point out logical fallacies all day in U.S foreign policy but please put your political opinions aside for a moment and just look at what’s being said. I see arguments that suggest withdrawing weapons and support from Ukraine is the right move because it will lead to peace. Isn’t this a fallacy like presumption of knowing the outcome of an event in which have no way of predicting? And also just ignoring all other consequences? It also seems to be shifting the responsibility and blame away from Russia. Another argument is “Only diplomacy “  will solve this not weapons to Ukraine”. How is this not a red herring? The aggressors pursue diplomacy when they feel they can no longer get their objectives or if it’s no longer worth it. Nobody even seems to know what Russia wants as their very vague in the details . Once again it shifts responsibility away and diplomacy in war changes by the situation on the ground. 

It just seems the point I see often is “ooooo we can stop the violence if we the U.S just stop weapons and aid and Ukraine will be forced to just give up some territory”. I can see no evidence of any good faith from Russia. People hate the Sudetenland analogy but it’s striking How similar they are.

asked on Wednesday, Jun 22, 2022 11:30:43 AM by alex

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Ed F writes:

Thumbs Up to the points you make.  

posted on Wednesday, Jun 22, 2022 12:42:54 PM
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Arlo writes:

I don't see "logic questions" in the two paragraphs.  I do see opinions, value statements, and unsupported claims: ["withdrawing weapons and support ... is the right move", "(doing so) will lead to peace", "Only diplomacy will solve ..."].  What I also don't see is an actual argument ... "doing something will lead to something else because ..." or examples to support links being made.

To be technical, I don't see any fallacies because I don't see an argument ... just opinions.

posted on Thursday, Jun 23, 2022 01:42:25 PM
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David Blomstrom writes:

I agree with Arlo; what you're offering are opinions, not fallacies.

Ironically, it might be hard to spot a fallacious statement regarding the situation in Ukraine for the simple reason that the situation is so complex. In one corner are people who blame the war on the U.S., which has been shoving nuclear weapons in Russia's face and promoting NATO membership ever since the Cold War supposedly ended.

In the other corner are those who claim the war is simply a greedy grab for Ukraine's natural resources, which are said to pose a threat to Russia's fossil fuel industry.

I have a third theory. The U.S. has long been Israel's primary ally, but we're quickly declining in power and prestige. Therefore, Israel may see Russia - the country where most Jews originated - as an important ally. It could therefore be to Israel's advantage to knock out Ukraine in order to strengthen Russia.

Note that most of the so-called Russian Oligarchs are Jews, many of whom have moved to Israel. Ukraine's fearless leader, Zalensky, is Jewish as well. And don't forget that Malaysian (i.e. Muslim) airliner that was shot down over Ukraine a few years ago and Putin's comments on "denazification." Note Russia's stoic refusal to defend its ally, Syria, from Israeli attacks.

In summary, I think the reasons for the war are all the above. Putin is a war hawk, just like his U.S. counterparts. At the same time, the U.S. has done its part to provoke war. And I smell some Israeli involvement as well.

Frankly, think the situation has deteriorated beyond the point of a diplomatic solution. It's a hopeless mess.

posted on Friday, Jun 24, 2022 12:20:18 PM
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Ed F writes:
[To David Blomstrom]

Although I’d prefer not to get dragged into this, I think someone needs to address your outrageous posting. 

First, based on pure speculation and incoherent reasoning, you blame Israel and Jews for the war in Ukraine.   This is, in my opinion, an extremely offensive example of scapegoating, something Jews have had to endure for the last 2000 years.  

Your posting also equates America’s conduct with Russia’s, ignoring the fact that Russia (not the United States) has brutally invaded another country, leveled cities in the process and barbarically bombed civilians including children.  This is a prime example of false equivalence.

I value this website as a place for people to bring up issues of current affairs to discuss whether fallacies are being committed.   But it should not be a place to go off on anti-Semitic or anti-American rants not connected to fallacies (or for that matter, to post essays on conspiracy theories as we have seen in so many recent postings).    

Dr Bennett, our moderator, wrote in connection with this question that “there is nothing too controversial on this forum.”   I applaud that sentiment.   And of course, as I am not the moderator, I defer to Dr Bennett as to policies for this website.  However, I would ask that consideration be given to posting guidelines on what is appropriate and inappropriate.   I would think that wild speculation blaming Jews and Israel for the genocide being committed by Russia in Ukraine (particularly where no fallacy is being discussed) would cross the line, in the same way as would hateful speculation against other minorities.   

[ login to reply ] posted on Saturday, Jun 25, 2022 05:26:06 PM
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David Blomstrom writes:
[To Ed F]

SERIOUSLY???

"Your posting also equates America’s conduct with Russia’s, ignoring the fact that Russia (not the United States) has brutally invaded another country, leveled cities in the process and barbarically bombed civilians including children.  This is a prime example of false equivalence."

You have to be joking. Do you have any idea how many countries the U.S. has invaded?!

"First, based on pure speculation and incoherent reasoning, you blame Israel and Jews for the war in Ukraine."

I don't believe I ever specified a definite cause. Some think the U.S. pushed Russia into war, while others think Russia is just slobbering over Ukraine's natural resources. There is also an Israeli/Jewish connection, which is much, much more than "speculation."

I'm sick of people who criticize Russia, China, Native Americans, or whatever, then cry foul when someone mentions the J-word. Grow up.

"This is, in my opinion, an extremely offensive example of scapegoating, something Jews have had to endure for the last 2000 years."

Tell is to the Muslims, or Native Americans, Palestinians, or any number of groups that no longer exist.

"But it should not be a place to go off on anti-Semitic or anti-American rants not connected to fallacies (or for that matter, to post essays on conspiracy theories as we have seen in so many recent postings)."

Oops, excuse me for claiming the U.S. has invaded lots of countries. We mustn't poison the air with such "anti-American" truths, right?

"I would think that wild speculation blaming Jews and Israel for the genocide being committed by Russia in Ukraine (particularly where no fallacy is being discussed) would cross the line, in the same way as would hateful speculation against other minorities."

Ah, the G-word. Do you even know what "genocide" means? The Chinese are supposedly committing "genocide" in Xinjiang, and Russia is committing "genocide" in Ukraine. But God forbid that we accuse Israelis of committing genocide against Palestinians.

Your hypocrisy is duly noted.

[ login to reply ] posted on Saturday, Jun 25, 2022 05:35:13 PM

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Answers

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Bo Bennett, PhD
5

There is nothing "too controversial" on this forum :) I just sometimes delete posts not remotely related to fallacies (e.g., "You are all going to burn in hell you filthy atheists!").

As for this topic, I see no clear argument therefore no clear fallacy. What I see is mixed views on foreign policy and possible scenarios being offered as what some feel are most probable outcomes.

answered on Wednesday, Jun 22, 2022 11:38:37 AM by Bo Bennett, PhD

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Ed F writes:

Please see my comment to David Blomstrom

posted on Saturday, Jun 25, 2022 05:27:40 PM
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Bo Bennett, PhD writes:
[To Ed F]

Just end the politics debate there because I think we already established the OP is more opinion than fallacy-related. I don't think any lines were crossed.

[ login to reply ] posted on Sunday, Jun 26, 2022 05:19:38 AM