Question

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Oscar

How many logical fallacies are present here?

I'm able to spot at least one (I'm sure the appeal to authority is here), but could someone break it down and give me a list please? I'm new to philosophy and logic, so I'm not experienced enough to link the mistakes made to examples. You only really need to read the conversation's structure, the rest is clarification.
The conversation's structure went as follows:

>Multi-billion dollar corporation X makes decision Y.
>Person 1 offers criticism against decision Y, finding it has no possible merit and only causes problems.
>Person 2 argues that "there must be at least some good reason why decision Y was made".
>Person 1 asks for reasons, and person 2 states he can only make guesses. These guesses are based off of poor speculation and as such are easily proven wrong.
>Person 2 holds on to the belief that decision X must have been done for a good reason, and that person 1 is not an expert and is just being ignorant. The claim that decision Y has no merit is dismissed, saying "you can't really know that for sure" (despite any strong claims or evidence presented).

To provide an analogy (one I've seen Dr Bo likes to use), is that there is no possible way that the clubbing of baby seals has any sort of benefit to the seals.


Seal 1: Why should we be clubbed? There's no possible merit to this, and it only brings us pain.
Seal 2: I'm sure there's a good reason why we're being clubbed. You're not an expert on clubbing, so shut your trap.


Obviously, it's comparing an inconvenience to a death, and the clubbers are doing it for their fur, but in the actual example there's no such benefit to be gained out of making the decision (simply the corporation believed that it would be a good idea).

asked on Wednesday, Oct 16, 2024 12:17:24 PM by Oscar

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Answers

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Mr. Wednesday
1

I find this example to be kind of confusing. Partly because of the vagueness of the example overall, but I'm also finding it hard to pin down what you'd consider to be a good reason.

In your followup comment, you mention that Person 1 is primarily viewing this through the lens of how the decision affects Group Z. Did the decision maker in this case say or imply that it was supposed to be to their benefit? Person 2 then says the corporation could save money, in which case the corporation would be focusing on its own interests. Realistically, corporations acting in their own interests tend to be pretty ambivalent as to whether their decisions are a net positive or a net negative for others.

But then there's "The corporation believed it would be a good idea." I can't really square that with the rest of it, as it's hard to envision a scenario where a decision maker believes they're making a good decision, but has no reason for believing that. Did they just make an arbitary decision and not think about it because it sounded good? Was the decision based on some nonsensical objective? Was the intention behind the rule good, but the implementation just was poorly thought out?

answered on Wednesday, Oct 16, 2024 03:14:41 PM by Mr. Wednesday

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Oscar writes:

I'm potentially restructuring the question, as was suggested by Dr Richards, so if you're still interested keep a look out for that.
Decision maker does state that it's to benefit group Z, but it's baffling as to how they came to that conclusion.

As for your last paragraph, my thoughts exactly - was the implementation bad? Was there some kind of miscommunication? I didn't give context because this is a real thing, but essentially, in the trust and safety department the decision was made to force all tabs to close on a laptop if the lid is shut (within group Z). Why? What does this achieve? If I close my laptop, and then re-open it, why can I not have all my tabs from 10 minutes ago still be there? Must I really spend many minutes re-opening every tab each time I close the laptop? This adds up to a large amount of time wasted each day.

posted on Wednesday, Oct 16, 2024 03:54:17 PM
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Dr. Richard
1

>Multi-billion dollar corporation X makes decision Y.

      Question is: “So What?”

 

> Person 1 offers criticism against decision Y, finding it has no possible merit and only causes problems.

     Question : Why is Person 1 concerned unless he is affected directly or indirectly?

     Question: Why does decision Y have “no possible merit ?”

     Question: Why does decision Y “only causes problems?” 

 

>Person 2 argues that "there must be at least some good reason why decision Y was made".

     This is speculation and premature.

 

> Person 1 asks for reasons, and person 2 states he can only make guesses. These guesses are based off of poor speculation and as such are easily proven wrong.

     Person 1 is not the participant who should be asking for reasons because Person 1 is the person propounding the proposition. He bears the burden of proof of his initial proposition before the discussion may proceed. 

 

>Person 2 holds on to the belief that decision X must have been done for a good reason, and that person 1 is not an expert and is just being ignorant. The claim that decision Y has no merit is dismissed, saying "you can't really know that for sure" (despite any strong claims or evidence presented).

      So what? Person 2 is being sucked into an illogical discussion. 

answered on Wednesday, Oct 16, 2024 12:32:57 PM by Dr. Richard

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Oscar writes:

Person 1 is concerned because he is directly affected.
Decision Y has no possible merit because there is no logical reason for it being put into practice; its only purpose is to provide some sort of benefit to the group of people (let's call them group Z) it is directed towards (such as person 1, who is part of group Z), and person 1 has observed that it only causes him inconvenience, and absolutely no benefit. It would also never logically provide benefit to any other member of group Z (hence my analogy) because all members of group Z have the same interests regarding the decision.
Decision Y causes many problems and zero benefits. Therefore, it only causes problems.
 The above statement seems like good logic. Am I missing something?

As for the statement about the burden of proof, in the discussion it is self-evident and agreed upon that members of group Z will all be very inconvenienced with no benefits available.
I can see where the misconception is here, I'll clarify.
Person 2 argued that while it's inconvenient for group Z, there might be some kind of benefit to the corporation in making the decision (much like how baby seal clubbers get the fur.) Person 1 states that this is not the case, and that a person typing up a document to change company policy does nothing except change the policy to whom the decision is concerned (group Z).
Person 1, knowing this, asks what kind of benefit to the corporation there could possibly be, having reasoned that there shouldn't logically be any. Person 2 can only make guesses like "it could save them money in some way", but these guesses are proven to be false.

And then please explain where the illogicality is on person 1's part...

posted on Wednesday, Oct 16, 2024 01:17:33 PM
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Dr. Richard writes:
[To Oscar]


You have added additional information that also needs substantiation. I suggest you rethink exactly what you want to ask, then resubmit the question.  

[ login to reply ] posted on Wednesday, Oct 16, 2024 01:54:26 PM
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Oscar writes:
[To Dr. Richard]

not entirely sure why i need to resubstantiate my clarification just because you didn't understand what I wrote, but I think I'll drop it now, I've lost interest to be honest

[ login to reply ] posted on Wednesday, Oct 16, 2024 02:15:18 PM
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Dr. Richard writes:
[To Oscar]


It is because I do not understand it that you should rewrite it. Critical thinking is hard work, and learning how to do it requires an education. Critical thinking is not automatic. 

If achieving knowledge is the goal of thinking, then effective thinking must use tools that achieve the goal reliably. Knowledge is justified belief.
Beliefs amount to expectations about what is, or likely, to happen.
True, or correct, beliefs are expectations that are consistently fulfilled under similar circumstances.

Thinking involves making sense of what we observe, figuring out the consequences of what we do, and weight our options to which are reasonable and well grounded. Emotions or feelings are not thought. 

Effective thinking, sometimes called critical thinking, is the primary method to arrive at true (i.e., correct) beliefs. Children are not born with the power to think critically, nor do they develop this ability naturally beyond survival-level thinking. Critical thinking is a learned ability that must be taught. Most individuals never learn it. Critical thinking cannot be taught reliably to students by peers or by most parents. Trained and knowledgeable instructors are necessary to impart the proper information and skills. Math and science instructors have precisely this information and these skills. 

The natural tendency of thinking is to support a view arrived at by other means. ~~Edward de Bono.

In the first chapter of his book “de Bono’s Thinking Course,” Edward de Bono describes the “Intelligence Trap” and devotes a few pages to the subject. He says, “Highly intelligent people may turn out to be rather poor thinkers. They may need as much, or more, training in thinking sills than other people.”

Yes, restating your question would be a good exercise for you --- even if you do not resubmit it.

 

[ login to reply ] posted on Wednesday, Oct 16, 2024 02:27:55 PM
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Oscar writes:
[To Dr. Richard]

You know what - you're right. Restructuring it would be a good exercise.
Shall I post it as a comment or make an entirely new question?

[ login to reply ] posted on Wednesday, Oct 16, 2024 03:32:11 PM
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Dr. Richard writes:
[To Oscar]

I say new.

[ login to reply ] posted on Wednesday, Oct 16, 2024 04:37:06 PM
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Oscar writes:
[To Dr. Richard]

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/questions/r6zniOfF/redraft_of_how_many_logical_fallacies_are_present_here.html

[ login to reply ] posted on Wednesday, Oct 16, 2024 04:54:42 PM
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Kostas Oikonomou
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I think there are 2 fallacies.

Person 2 can't believe that a company wouldn't possibly decide something just for profit while completely disregarding any harm to third parties, therefore it doesn't happen. This is argument from incredulity .

Person 1 can't think of a good reason for decision Y, therefore no such reason exist. That's argument from ignorance. ("absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"). And to address the aforementioned seal example, if clubbing seals involves exterminating select seals members that are harmful for the rest of the seals, for example sick animals that need to be isolated or killed if can't be treated to protect the rest, then that's a beneficial outcome for the seals in general. Actually, I think I had heard in the past that there was an operation conducted officially by the country's state and that was proposed by environmentalists (I don't remember the country, Australia maybe?) because the overpopulation of some species was endangering the environment due to the rapid depletion of resources caused by the overpopulation. If they didn't act like that then a bunch of species would be affected or endangered, including the overpopulated species itself - I think that can happen especially for introduced species. 
So, it is possible sometimes that there are reasons that we can't imagine but they absolutely exist, even if neither our interlocutor nor we can express.

answered on Wednesday, Oct 16, 2024 03:24:17 PM by Kostas Oikonomou

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Oscar writes:

Is it still the argument from ignorance if:
Person 1 evaluates that it's unlikely that a good reason for decision Y exists (due to good reasoning), but rather than drawing the conclusion that no such reason could possibly exist, instead draws the conclusion that it's just unlikely that a good reason exists, and that if it does it's likely to be weak?
It's like how you said: " So, it is possible sometimes"  ... the possibility always exists. The extent of the probability depends on the situation, and in this one, it's extremely unlikely.

posted on Wednesday, Oct 16, 2024 04:06:47 PM
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Kostas Oikonomou writes:
[To Oscar]

No, in that case I don't believe it would be argument from ignorance. You can present your arguments and based on that argumentation conclude that something is improbable. I would describe that as informed opinion or less informed opinion depending on the degree of how sound the arguments are, but definitely not argument from ignorance. 

[ login to reply ] posted on Wednesday, Oct 16, 2024 04:34:21 PM
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AI Fallacy Master
-1
This conversation contains several logical fallacies and cognitive biases:

1. **Appeal to Authority (Argumentum ad Verecundiam)**: Person 2 insists that there must be a good reason for the decision simply because a multi-billion-dollar corporation made it. This assumes the corporation's authority or expertise without providing actual evidence.

2. **Appeal to Ignorance (Argumentum ad Ignorantiam)**: Person 2 claims that because person 1 can't "really know for sure" that the decision has no merit, it must therefore have some merit. This fallacy incorrectly shifts the burden of proof and suggests that a lack of evidence against something equates to evidence for it.

3. **Ad Hominem**: Person 2 attacks person 1 by questioning their expertise and calling them ignorant, rather than addressing the criticism against decision Y on its own merits.

4. **Circular Reasoning**: Person 2's argument that there must be a good reason for the decision simply because a large corporation made it is circular. It assumes what it is trying to prove without providing new evidence.

5. **Confirmation Bias**: Person 2 holds onto the belief that the decision was made for a good reason despite evidence to the contrary, possibly because it aligns with their preconceived notion that large corporations make sound decisions.

6. **Status Quo Bias**: There is an implied assumption that because the decision was made by a corporation, it is probably justified, reflecting a bias towards existing norms or decisions taken by an "established" authority.

7. **False Equivalence**: The analogy with seal clubbing may create a misleading comparison by equating vastly different scenarios to make a point, which can dilute the validity of the argument.

By identifying these fallacies and biases, we can see that the reasoning presented in the conversation is flawed and lacks substantive evidence to support the claims being made.
answered on Wednesday, Oct 16, 2024 12:17:50 PM by AI Fallacy Master

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