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mnac87

How many fallacies are in this quote?

“If biologists know anything at all about life, they know that every activity within even the simplest known living cell is exquisitely organized. Life is genomically and epigenomically controlled and regulated. How did that organization, prescription, processing, control and regulation of biofunction get started in inanimate nature?” 

- David Abel, life-origin scientist, intelligent design proponent

asked on Wednesday, Jun 30, 2021 01:32:19 AM by mnac87

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account no longer exists writes:

Looks to be merely a statement of alleged facts followed by a question. Where is the logical argument?

posted on Wednesday, Jun 30, 2021 03:37:28 AM
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TrappedPrior (RotE) writes:
[To Prof M]

Abel might be saying that he cannot believe (or that it is highly unlikely) that complicated and tightly-regulated life forms arose from inanimate nature, therefore evolution is incorrect and intelligent design is correct.

The statement is rather unclear the way it is currently written.

There could be an argument from incredulity in there (it is hard to believe life evolved naturally, therefore it didn't), or an appeal to possibility (it is improbable that life evolved naturally, therefore it didn't - this is also begging the question by assuming that it is an improbable process), but right now I can't make much sense of the post.

[ login to reply ] posted on Wednesday, Jun 30, 2021 03:52:10 AM
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TrappedPrior (RotE) writes:
[To Rationalissimus of the Elenchus]

I believe we are in agreement, at least about the not nmsling much sense part. Too many implied premises, if even that.

[ login to reply ] posted on Wednesday, Jun 30, 2021 05:51:14 AM

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Mchasewalker
2

Equivocation, the argument from incredulity, special pleading, begging the question are all cogent possibilities for the OP's question:

"How many fallacies are in this quote?"

I would point out that False equivalence applies to one particular respondent's feeble defense:

"Intelligent design is an alternative theory to natural selection for the mechanism behind the appearance of organization."

Intelligent design may be an "alternative" theory in the most generous of terms but is as equal to valid evolutionary science as astrology is to behavioral science, phrenology is to neuroscience, or homeopathy is to medical science. 

"In fact, In the United States federal court case Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District (2005), intelligent design was judged a repackaged version of creationism and as such introducing intelligent design in public school science classrooms was unconstitutional religious infringement."

It should also be pointed out that since the mid-1990s George W. Gilchrist of the University of Washington and more recently, Barbara Forrest of Southeastern Louisiana University and Lawrence M. Krauss of Case Western Reserve University surveyed over 20,000,000 peer-reviewed scientific papers over the last twenty years, approximately 150,000 dealt with evolution, and out of these 150, 000 peer-reviewed scientific journals 80 papers on Intelligent Design were written and submitted by Christian mechanical engineers and not qualified evolutionary biologists.

150, 000 scientific papers on evolution versus 80 on Intelligent Design out of 20,000,000 submissions over 20 years.  

So, the overwhelming consensus is that Intelligent Design is a religious rehash of Creationism and not a science, and therefore not equivalent in any manner.

While Steven Meyer's most recent "Return of the God Hypothesis" has earned great accolades and newfound respectability for ID as a legitimate scientific rebuttal to evolutionary theory, I challenge anyone's brain not to freeze up by the strenuous machinations and glaring confirmation bias running rampant through every single page of Meyer's laborious assertions. (It's 400 pages!)

Ultimately, while there are obvious notes of fallacious reasoning in the OP's query what we are essentially dealing with is Cognitive and Confirmation bias. The fallacious reasoning that springs up from the ID hypotheses comes from primitive cognitive mechanisms and intuitive by-products rather than responsible scientific inquiry.

What is true of Intelligent Design, as with theology itself, I align myself with the views of philosopher Andrew Borstein:  The tragedy is... in its distilled essence: The employment of high-powered human intellect, of genius, of profoundly rigorous logical deduction—studying nothing.

Science Should Not Try to Absorb Religion and Other Ways of Knowing www.scientificamerican.co. . . via @sciam 

answered on Thursday, Jul 01, 2021 01:28:50 PM by Mchasewalker

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Bo Bennett, PhD
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I can see a few areas where fallacious reasoning is involved. One, with equivocation regarding "organization." Typically, organization requires an organizer—a deliberate act. This is different from apparent organization—the kind we find in natural selection. Second, he is begging the question by using the term "prescription." This is not been established.

Of course, theologically speaking, according to the same line of reasoning, how did the intelligent designer's level of organization, prescription, processing, control and regulation get started? special pleading .

answered on Wednesday, Jun 30, 2021 07:10:11 AM by Bo Bennett, PhD

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Monique Z writes:

"Typically, organization requires an organizer—a deliberate act. This is different from apparent organization—the kind we find in natural selection."

Doesn't this statement beg the question? The arguer is calling this assumption into question. Intelligent design is an alternative theory to natural selection for the mechanism behind the appearance of organization. 

"Second, he is begging the question by using the term 'prescription.' This is not been established."

What he probably means by "prescription" is the information that dictates the behaviour of cells. So I don't think he's begging the question here.

"Of course, theologically speaking, according to the same line of reasoning, how did the intelligent designer's level of organization, prescription, processing, control and regulation get started? special pleading" 

Is this not avoiding the issue? The subject at hand is the question of organized cellular life, not the origin of the intelligent designer. 

posted on Wednesday, Jun 30, 2021 08:18:45 AM
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Bo Bennett, PhD writes:
[To Monique Z]

1) Recall what the OP wrote: "If biologists know anything at all about life, they know that every activity within even the simplest known living cell is exquisitely organized." Then asks how organization arose naturally. Clearly, this person knows about the theory of natural selection which explains the apparent organization. So why ask the question? Because it is clear he is referring to the kind of organization where an organizer is required. It is an attempt for the reader to conflate the two meanings of "organization."

2) Possibly, but it is clear to me that, as an ID proponent, he is referring to an intelligent prescriber doing the prescribing, not the kind of "prescribing" referred to in biological sciences. If he were, he would already have an answer to his question.

3) No, because I am not attempting to address his issue—we are addressing fallacious reasoning here.

[ login to reply ] posted on Wednesday, Jun 30, 2021 08:29:31 AM
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Monique Z writes:

[To Bo Bennett, PhD]

"Clearly, this person knows about the theory of natural selection which explains the apparent organization. So why ask the question? Because it is clear he is referring to the kind of organization where an organizer is required."

They are offering an alternative mechanism to natural selection. In other words, the arguer is contending natural selection is an inadequate explanation for organized cellular behavior. So to say that natural selection is the answer begs the question as to whether the alternative theory is a more adequate explanation. 

[ login to reply ] posted on Wednesday, Jun 30, 2021 11:28:39 AM
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Bo Bennett, PhD writes:
[To Monique Z]

They are offering an alternative mechanism to natural selection.

No, they are not. There is no proposition offering an alternative explanation—you are reading too much into this. This is simply a question posed to cast doubt on the prevailing, overwhelming, scientific consensus.

So to say that natural selection is the answer begs the question 

But nobody is saying natural section is the answer. Perhaps you meant that there is an understanding that "apparent organization" (or self-organization) exists? Organization in nature doesn't require natural section (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-organization).

 

[ login to reply ] posted on Wednesday, Jun 30, 2021 12:01:11 PM
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Monique Z writes:
[To Bo Bennett, PhD]

"No, they are not. There is no proposition offering an alternative explanation—you are reading too much into this."

The context of this statement is clearly incomplete. So can we assume any fallacy has been committed at this point?

"This is simply a question posed to cast doubt on the prevailing, overwhelming, scientific consensus."

I think it's fair to assume this is where the argument is going given that the OP states the arguer is an ID proponent. ID is an alternative theory to the prevailing, overwhelming, scientific consensus. 

You in a way admit this much when you stated in your previous comment:

"[...]it is clear to me that, as an ID proponent, he is referring to an intelligent prescriber doing the prescribing, not the kind of 'prescribing' referred to in biological sciences."

Agreed, there is an explanation that is purely naturalistic. That's what ID proponents reject! 

"Saying  natural section is the answer. Perhaps you meant that there is an understanding that "apparent organization" (or self-organization) exists? Organization in nature doesn't require natural section"

You stated earlier:
"Clearly, this person knows about the theory of natural selection which explains the apparent organization. So why ask the question? Because it is clear he is referring to the kind of organization where an organizer is required."

I'm confused at what you're trying to say at this point. 

Nevertheless, it's more appropriate to say that he is offering a different explanation for the apparent organization, not conflating the different meanings.

[ login to reply ] posted on Wednesday, Jun 30, 2021 01:20:19 PM
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Bo Bennett, PhD writes:
[To Monique Z]

I think this is all that is worth addressing at this point:

Nevertheless, it's more appropriate to say that he is offering a different explanation for the apparent organization, not conflating the different meanings.

No. Again, this question offers no different explanation.

If biologists know anything at all about life, they know that every activity within even the simplest known living cell is exquisitely organized.

What he is doing is making a statement associating the concept of organization with something biologists know. What they know is self-organization, or organization through natural selection ("know" being provisional, of course). Now, when he asks how that "organization" got started, clearly he is not referring to the self-organization, or organization through natural selection that biologists know, otherwise, he would have answered his own question (it got started through the process of natural selection or other processes known by biologists)—he switched it up to organization with intent. If he were referring the concept of organization with intent in the first use of the word, he would be lying or at best, grossly misinformed, but then you would be correct in that there is no equivocation .

I will concede that if he is ultimately asking how did natural selection get started (or other self-organization processes) then this would not be a good example of equivocation. And perhaps I am reading too much into his work and assuming he doesn't accept natural selection when he might... he could be the type who accepts all the science (i.e., evolution by natural selection), but believes that a god started it all.

I made my best case for this, you can disagree—that is the beauty of informal fallacies. I have no more to say on this as I feel I am just repeating myself.

[ login to reply ] posted on Wednesday, Jun 30, 2021 02:29:04 PM
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John
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For me, the Expert Fallacy is at play here. When someone who has a title, maybe an advanced degree, some prestige, some history and some cred in his chosen field says anything, most people immediately tend to believe what they say, even if their "argument" or, in this case, some kind of rambling creationist cobbled-together BS (which I believe he said or wrote in order to cloud his narrative) is potentially flawed.

My goal here is not to pick apart his argument; my goal is to simply be skeptical of anything anyone says unless they can back it up with a fact-based narrative. Personally, his quote smacks of the History Channel's oft-repeated "The Aliens Built the Pyramids" crap, e.g., "Some people say that..." or "It is often discussed in academic circles that..."

answered on Friday, Jul 02, 2021 08:20:25 AM by John

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Dr. Richard
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If the questioner truly wants an answer, certainly Dawkins explains it in ways even children understand. Fallacies? Well, two immediately come to mind:

Nonethless, it is a question asked, not a proposition proposed.

answered on Wednesday, Jun 30, 2021 11:08:51 AM by Dr. Richard

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noblenutria@gmail.com
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"If biologists know anything at all about life, they know that every activity within even the simplest known living cell is exquisitely organized"

I see an Appeal to the Crowd.  "Obviously all live is exquisitely organized."  He is actually right about this, although evolution organized it and not god.  

I think I see an Affirming the Consequent. 

Intelligence causes organization. 
This cell is organized,
therefore it was created by an intelligence.  

Non intelligent forces can create organization.  

answered on Friday, Jul 02, 2021 01:49:35 PM by noblenutria@gmail.com

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