Question

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Kostas Oikonomou

Applying Modus Tolens to unsupported claim

Example 1
If God does not exist, moral knowledge does not exist.
Moral knowledge exists.
Therefore, God exists.

Following that kind of reasoning we can argue,
Example 2
If the Flying Spaghetti Monster does not exist, spaghetti does not exist.,
Spaghetti exists.
Therefore, the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists.

The logical form of such arguments is,
If P, then Q . (P=God doesn't exist, Q=moral knowledge doesn't exist)
Not Q . ("not Q" = moral knowledge exists)
Therefore, not P .  ("not P" = God exists)

The reasoning is valid (modus tollens) but the argument overall is invalid because the initial premise is invalid.


Is there a name for such arguments?

asked on Friday, Aug 09, 2024 05:29:20 PM by Kostas Oikonomou

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TrappedPrior (RotE) writes:

I'd say the logical form is closer to the following (let P be 'God' and Q be 'moral knowledge)

(1) If not-P , then  not-Q

(2) Q , therefore

(3) P

The argument is logically valid (no formal fallacy) but it's  unsound  because (1) has not been argued for. That's the name for these types of arguments - they're unsound (rationally unpersuasive) because of the dubious initial premise.

For starters, 'God' is not defined so we don't know which cosmic entity the speaker is referring to.

There's also a chicken-or-egg problem as far as moral knowledge is concerned. Is something moral because God approves of it? Or does God approve of it because it's moral? If the former, then plausibly, God could approve of psychopathic acts like mass murder, and we would be compelled to commit these. If the latter, then God seems redundant, as his approval is after-the-fact.

posted on Saturday, Aug 10, 2024 05:07:06 PM
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Kostas Oikonomou writes:

[To TrappedPrior (RotE)]

+1 for tipping me about "unsound" arguments. I didn't know that term. Thanks!
Also from the answers given so far I deem your answer (an unsound argument) to be the most valid answer to my question. As I wrote in my comment to the AI-guy, I don't see it as non-sequitur or begging-the-question type, just an an unsupported claim with a fancy ribbon around it to make it look like a valid argument. Arguments like these are a dime a dozen.

As for the 'God' definition, it doesn't matter. The person who made that argument could pick any definition they think it suits the argument better as far as I'm concerned; it doesn't matter cause it doesn't change the validity of the argument. That's why I gave the second example. What both arguments demonstrate is how one can create unsound but somewhat valid-looking arguments from an arbitrary unsupported claim. I wasn't trying to argue anything related to moral knowledge, I wanted to only examine the form of such arguments. 

[ login to reply ] posted on Saturday, Aug 10, 2024 05:37:02 PM

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Answers

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Kaiden
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Hi, Kostas! 

Any argument with a modus tollens argument-form is valid, no matter what the premises state. Also, an initial premise cannot be invalid because invalidity is a characteristic of an inference or an argument, not a statement or a premise. So, you cannot construct an overall invalid argument with a modus tollens form, and an argument cannot be invalid for having an invalid premise, which is why there is no name for this type of argument other than "impossible", if you will.

 

What both arguments demonstrate is how one can create unsound but somewhat valid-looking arguments from an arbitrary unsupported claim. 

Both arguments do not demonstrate this. Contrary to what you've heard, a dubious, unargued, unsupported premise does not make an unsound argument. An argument is unsound only if it is either invalid or has a false premise. In order to demonstrate to us, with these two arguments, what you claim that these valid arguments demonstrate, you would have to show—not leave it unargued and unsupported—that they contain a false premise. But you aren’t here to argue the truth or falsity of the premises.

 

Thank you, Kostas. 

From, Kaiden 

answered on Monday, Aug 12, 2024 05:24:06 PM by Kaiden

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Kostas Oikonomou writes:

Thank you Kaiden for your answer! It wasn't very clear to me the term "valid". I used to think that something is valid as being sound, I didn't know the particular terminology used in logic.
With your answer you clarified what the "validity" and TrappedPrior (RotE) with his comment clarified what the term "sound" means - in the meantime I also looked it up in some videos - but thanks! 

posted on Tuesday, Aug 13, 2024 01:25:45 AM
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Kaiden writes:
[To Kostas Oikonomou]

To reiterate, the only kind of premise that can make an argument unsound is a  false  one. I’ll leave it at that, and you are welcome! 

[ login to reply ] posted on Thursday, Aug 15, 2024 11:29:51 AM
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AI Fallacy Master
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Yes, there is a name for the type of argument you’ve described. It is known as a "non sequitur," specifically an instance of a "false premise" or "begging the question."

### Addressing Logical Fallacies and Cognitive Biases:
1. **False Premise**:
- Both arguments hinge on an unsupported premise: "If God does not exist, moral knowledge does not exist" and "If the Flying Spaghetti Monster does not exist, spaghetti does not exist." These premises are not substantiated and making such a claim without evidence is a logical flaw. The truth of the conclusion (whether God or the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists) depends on the truth of the premise, which is not demonstrated.

2. **Begging the Question**:
- This logical fallacy involves assuming the truth of the conclusion implicitly or explicitly in the premise. The arguments assume without support that the existence of moral knowledge necessarily requires the existence of God or a Flying Spaghetti Monster.

3. **Non Sequitur**:
- A non sequitur is an argument where the conclusion does not logically follow from the premises. Even if the form of the argument mimics a valid logical structure (modus tollens), if the premises lack validity, the argument is unsound. The conclusion that moral knowledge proves God's existence or the existence of spaghetti proves the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn’t logically follow because the premises are inherently flawed.

### Correct Logical Form with Valid Premises:
For an argument using modus tollens to be sound and valid, it should have true premises that support the conclusion. Here’s an example with proper logic:
1. **True Premise**: If it is raining, the ground will be wet. (P → Q)
2. **Observation**: The ground is not wet. (¬Q)
3. **Conclusion**: Therefore, it is not raining. (¬P)

In your examples:
1. **Unsupported Premise**: If God does not exist, moral knowledge does not exist.
2. **Observation**: Moral knowledge exists.
3. **Conclusion**: Therefore, God exists.

To validate the conclusion, you would need to prove the premise that asserts the necessary connection between the existence of God and moral knowledge, which is not inherently self-evident or empirically demonstrable.

### Summary:
The arguments you’ve provided are examples of non sequiturs and are unsound due to false premises. They incorrectly assume a causal or necessary relationship without justification. Recognizing these logical missteps helps ensure that premises are adequately supported and that conclusions validly follow.
answered on Friday, Aug 09, 2024 05:29:32 PM by AI Fallacy Master

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Kostas Oikonomou writes:

Thank you for your answer. I agree with the false premise (which I also state in my initial post). I don't see how it may be a "Begging the question" since I don't see how the conclusion is implied in the premise. The premise does not assume the existence of God. It assumes that without a god we can't have moral knowledge. The premise just states a consequence of the existence (or non-existence) of something. It does not assume the existence. Also, since the reasoning is valid (modus tollens) it can't be non-sequitur, (if the premise was valid, the argument would be valid). So it's just false premise.

So, my question is if there is a specific name for that specific way of constructing invalid arguments using modus-tollens from false premises.

Also, another question I have for a while is, are your answers AI-generated, and if so from which software?

posted on Saturday, Aug 10, 2024 08:59:16 AM
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Dr. Richard
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To which of the thousands of known gods humans have groveled before does the premise refer? Once the proponent names that god, then the proponent must offer an intelligible definition and then adduce evidence as to the existence of that god.

Morality is a code of ethics. Upon what evidence does the proponent base the premise that “moral knowledge does not exist” without a god?

If the parties decide to continue the discussion, I doubt they will pass the definition of god issue. I have never seen it happen.  But, as it stands, the logical errors are listed above in another comment.

answered on Friday, Aug 09, 2024 05:44:44 PM by Dr. Richard

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Kostas Oikonomou writes:

Thank you for the answer but my question was not about how rational the argument is, or whether the initial premise is valid or not. My question was if there is a known name for creating such modus tollens arguments from arbitrary claims - something more specific and precise than the generic False Premise or Non-sequitur.

posted on Saturday, Aug 10, 2024 08:18:33 AM
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Dr. Richard writes:
[To Kostas Oikonomou]

Ah, yes, you are right. I read it too fast and misunderstood. Sorry about that.

[ login to reply ] posted on Saturday, Aug 10, 2024 11:44:09 AM
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Kostas Oikonomou writes:
[To Dr. Richard]

Ah, no worries man, I've been there too ;)

[ login to reply ] posted on Saturday, Aug 10, 2024 12:10:02 PM