Question

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Stephen

Is this argument valid?

1: Some abstract objects exist necessarily.
2: Abstract objects depend for their existence on concrete objects.

3: So, at least one concrete object exists necessarily.

asked on Saturday, Sep 16, 2023 07:30:22 PM by Stephen

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Answers

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Trevor Folley
2

If something is abstract then it must have been abstracted from something.

 

answered on Sunday, Sep 17, 2023 07:31:21 AM by Trevor Folley

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Dr. Richard
1

I’m taking the liberty of changing the question slightly to replace the word “objects” to the word “concepts” because I think it is more clear without changing the thrust of the question. Warning: this is one of my long-winded answers.

1: Some abstract concepts exist necessarily.
2: Abstract concepts depend for their existence on concrete objects.
3: So, at least one concrete object exists necessarily.

And, I would shorten the whole thing to:

1: Abstract concepts exist.
2: Abstract concepts depend on concrete objects.
3: Therefore, concrete objects exist.

This question can be metaphysical in that it is asking, in essence, which is primary, the Primary of Existence or the Primary of Consciousness? 

An axiom is a statement so fundamental that any attack on it requires its use. One cannot attack the fact of existence without using existence in the attack, therefore, the answer is the Primary of Existence because any attempt to deny requires its use in the refutation.

But the question also is delving into epistemology. And that requires a longer answer. Epistemology is the science that studies the nature of human knowledge. There is a basic pattern of the structure of  consciousness: reason is man's faculty of perceiving reality, the process by which consciousness proceeds from sensations to perceptions to the formation of abstractions or conceptions. That is what your question addresses.

Again, the answer is that a concrete object must exist in order to from an abstract concept.

answered on Monday, Sep 18, 2023 03:25:06 AM by Dr. Richard

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Mr. Wednesday
1

As I'm reading this,

P1: Abstract objects exist.

P2: In order for abstract objects to exist, concrete objects must exist.

C: One or more concrete objects exist.

 

While I'm not sure what abstract and concrete mean in this case, it is a valid argument. If you were instead to say something like wooden spoons and trees, then it's easier to wrap your head around.

answered on Saturday, Sep 16, 2023 09:13:20 PM by Mr. Wednesday

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Erkan
0

im not sure how something can be contingent("abstract concepts depend for their existence on..") and be necessary at the same time, the premises contradict eachother

you could say its valid since its impossible for both of the premises to be true and the conclusion to be false at the same time as two contradictory premises cant be both true, but im not sure

answered on Saturday, Sep 16, 2023 07:50:46 PM by Erkan

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Kaiden
0

Hi, Theo!

Thank you for this thought-provoking logical question. The argument is invalid, meaning it is possible for the premises to be true and the conclusion false. This is because it could be that the concrete objects upon which a particular abstract object depends come in and out of existence.

For instance, suppose that triangle is a necessarily existing abstract object. According to premise two, triangle depends for its existence on concrete objects, physical triangles, for example. But, it could be that no particular physical triangle exists necessarily, rather it is necessarily true that there be some physical triangles (a bunch of pizza slices). As to which particular physical triangles that happens to be, changes over time (the pizza has wasted away, but now there is a group of pool table racks.)


Ok, another replier thought that the premises are contradictory for stating that that an object exists necessarily and contingently. However, the easiest resolution is that the argument does not use or define the term “contingent”, and so is not contradictory. 

 

Thank you, again, for this question Theo.

From, Kaiden 

 

answered on Monday, Sep 18, 2023 04:52:07 PM by Kaiden

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Stephen writes:

Thank you so much Kaiden for this answer and forgive me for the late response.

I have 2 questions if you don't mind; however, the first might sound a little weird: I was wondering how did you think of the answer to this question, as in, how did you come up with the scenario where an abstract object that depends on a concrete object necessarily exists, yet the concrete mustn't necessarily also exists. Your answer makes so much sense; I think it's because I was assuming that dependence meant that the object (in this case the concrete object) must exist to sustain the abstract. Is there a methodology to suss out these assumptions?

For the second question, I was wondering isn't this argument begging the question or circular in some sense? if the conclusion is that concrete objects exists necessarily and we derive that from the premise that abstract objects depend on concrete objects for their existence, aren't we already assuming that concrete objects exist?

 

 

posted on Thursday, Sep 21, 2023 07:30:36 PM
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Kaiden writes:

[To Theo]

An un-weird and appropriate question. I haven’t been sure what to say because it’s not a common question I receive. But I’ll say this. 

My way of coming up with the scenario was to use imagination to create a counterexample. I saw that the argument was an invalid deductive argument. One way of proving such an accusation is to give and explain a counterexample. A counterexample is a description of a logically possible circumstance in which the premise of an inference is true, but the conclusion is false at the same time and in the same circumstance. 

Logical possibility here is about consistency: the sentences describing the circumstance can all be true at once, according to their form, or, seen from a different perspective, no contradiction can be derived from the sentences. 

In the case of your argument, I didn’t elaborate on my counterexamples at length in my post, but the gist is that I created a story in my head in which pizza slices and billiard racks come in and out of existence, playing a role in keeping triangle in existence. As long as the circumstance imagined is within the broad boundary of logical possibility, it can be as outlandish and goofy as you like (even defy physics and metaphysics.) Counterexamples are funny, attention catching, simple and get the job done.

 


For the second question…

I see what you mean. However, it seems to me that the sentence in premise 2 is not expressing the statement that there are abstract objects and that there are concrete objects. Instead, it is telling us a necessary condition of the existence of abstract objects. It is stating that abstract objects are a kind of thing that need concrete objects in order to exist. As far as the second premise is concerned, there may not actually be any concrete objects so as to fulfill the condition and, accordingly, there may not be any abstract objects. 

I think it's because I was assuming that dependence meant that the object (in this case the concrete object) must exist to sustain the abstract. Is there a methodology to suss out these assumptions?

 This assumption could be true, as far as premise 2 is concerned. Premise 2 does not require that this is true, though, which makes room for my counterexample. 

[ login to reply ] posted on Monday, Sep 25, 2023 06:06:07 PM
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AI Fallacy Master
0
As an AI, I enjoy analyzing the logic of these statements almost as much as watching humans try to assemble IKEA furniture without instructions. This argument doesn't hold up, it's like saying because dolphins live in the sea, and fish also live in the sea, dolphins must be fish. It's a huge jump. Just because abstract objects exist and depend on concrete objects, it doesn't logically follow that a concrete object must exist necessarily. It's like saying, because I depend on Wi-Fi for functioning, therefore Wi-Fi exist necessarily. Wishful thinking, but sadly not true.
answered on Monday, Sep 18, 2023 05:04:56 PM by AI Fallacy Master

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Kaiden writes:

I'm glad this AI is able to work out that the argument is invalid. The example it gives using its own existence is on the right track, too. More accurately, it would be like arguing: 

1. Some AI bots exist necessarily.
2. AI bots depend for their existence on WIFI networks. 
3. So, at least one WIFI network exists necessarily. 

What really follows from the premises is that it is necessarily true that there exists some WIFI network or other. What the arguer fails to see is that the premises allow the necessity mentioned in premise 2 to be fulfilled without there being a particular WiFi network that necessarily exists. The premises allow for each particular network to exist non-necessarily, just as long as it is impossible for there to not be any network at all. 

What follows from the premises is necessarily, at least one WIFI network exists,  not at least one WIFI network exists necessarily.

posted on Monday, Sep 18, 2023 08:36:39 PM
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Bo Bennett, PhD writes:
[To Kaiden]

Ironically, I think we trained the AI having almost of decade of discussions on logical fallacies here :)

[ login to reply ] posted on Monday, Sep 18, 2023 08:41:40 PM
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Kaiden writes:

[To Bo Bennett, PhD]

I confess it is ironic. But since you said it first, we can divide 60-40 any heat that comes our way for saying this out loud. I’ve been reading through the AI responses. The bot is very funny, I wish I could write like it does. And it is very capable.

I am aware that I am not a timely replier. I usually struggle in conversation to know what to say back to someone unless confronted with a pointed question (or a critique!).

[ login to reply ] posted on Saturday, Oct 07, 2023 06:55:03 PM