Corrupt Union Paradox

As the others have said, I think you both commit fallacies here.

The co-workers use a red herring to dismiss concerns about union failure by pointing to personal benefits. That's irrelevant - a union doing good things does not make the bad things disappear. It's like saying that a convicted killer can't be guilty because they once bought you a beer.

However, you also speak in generalities about unions without evidence. And arguably, you make a weak analogy when comparing unions to paper bags - they do much more than simply holding people's jobs down (which itself is a much more significant act than carrying groceries) - see Dr Bo's reply for a list of other duties unions have.

You're half right. I committed the fallacy of hasty generalization. I assumed that, since the two unions I've belonged to are corrupt, other unions must be corrupt, too.

On the other hand, there are elements in our society that are very good at infiltrating and corrupting institutions, so one might speculate that most unions have been similarly corrupted. At the same time, I don't see a lot of evidence supporting the claim that most unions are really out there fighting for workers.

One person who would doubtless disagree with everything I've said is union boss Jimmy Hoffa. ;)

Unions also have a responsibility to enforce the contracts they negotiate, and that's where the two unions I've been involved in failed miserably.

True Story: I had a supervisor people were afraid of because they knew he used to be a cop - until he got fired. As everyone knows, police officers can virtually murder people and get away with it.

One day, this guy crossed the line with me, so I started investigating him. I discovered that multiple people had filed grievances against him, but the union did nothing. Then I discovered he was also a sex predator. There was a group of women who were desperately seeking help, but the union wouldn't do a thing.

Here's the fun part: One day, a local newspaper published an article - about this supervisor. It turns out that when he was a cop, he was a serial rapist who used to hang out in a strip club. He was also the prime suspect in a double murder. He wasn't convicted, but the case was reopened when evidence from one of the crime scenes was discovered - in his partner's home.

Through all of this drama, the union never did a thing. Eventually, the guy was transferred to another facility where he finally got fired for sexual harassment. I have much more evidence against this union than that, but this is the most spectacular example of union corruption I've experienced.

I guess, I should have reworded that, since I've only been a member of two "unions" - the Teamsters and the National Education Association. When I worked at the post office I did not belong to the union, but it was clearly a joke. So I guess I could say I have some experience with three unions. My general perception is that most unions have been infiltrated and corrupted by Big Business, but I could be wrong.

In this case, I mean good (or bad) for the union's members.

Among other practices, by protecting bad employees, compulsory unions have broken the backs of companies that went out of business, and all employees then had no jobs. There is a difference between a union in which all members are required to join and one in which the employee joins voluntarily. The former serves the “good” of the union leaders, and the latter serves the “good” of the employees.

For whatever it's worth, UPS really really wants to see its competitor, FedEx, unionized - and I don't think it's because they care about FedEx's employees. ;)

I bet you are right. Cronyism at work. If you can’t beat them, get a legislator to increase the burden on the competition or eliminate them --- otherwise known as the aristocracy of pull.