Question

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John Best

2nd ammendment argument.

The question was asked,

Why do (slur removed) feel that the right to keep and bear arms doesn’t include so called assault rifles?

A follow-on argument was made:

If these so called assault rifles are for military use, which national militaries use them?

 

asked on Friday, May 27, 2022 10:06:17 AM by John Best

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Ed F writes:

Can you add more context to these questions/arguments so we can better parse them?

posted on Friday, May 27, 2022 10:14:52 AM
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John Best writes:
[To Ed F]

It was a reply to

I don't know why (Political party deleted) feel that the right to bear arms includes assault rifles in our society? Assault rifles are for military use.

[ login to reply ] posted on Friday, May 27, 2022 10:25:16 AM
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Shawn writes:

Not really a logical fallacy, but an opinion or interpretation of the 2nd amendment. 

posted on Friday, May 27, 2022 10:32:52 AM
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John Best writes:

[To Shawn]

I thought there would be some fallacy about making a persuasion by making assumptions about ill-defined  terms, and perhaps lumping a specific class into a general category without proper definitions.

[ login to reply ] posted on Friday, May 27, 2022 10:36:11 AM
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Ed F writes:

So far I don't see an argument; just rhetorical questions.

posted on Friday, May 27, 2022 10:41:58 AM
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John Best writes:
[To Ed F]

But they nudge you to draw a conclusion, yes?   Kind of unstated argument.  I would call it a sort of argument by  inference.   The question originally posed is itself fallacious, in that the statement 'assault rifles are for military use' has nothing to do with what is granted for civilian use.   

But in the answer, there is an attempt to persuade, so although the 'inferred argument' is not entirely written out, should/could it be considered as making an argument?    

 

[ login to reply ] posted on Friday, May 27, 2022 10:59:13 AM
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Ed F writes:
[To John Best]

Can you state in premise and conclusion form what you think is the argument?

[ login to reply ] posted on Friday, May 27, 2022 11:19:03 AM
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John Best writes:
[To Ed F]

Not without inference.    So would this be a persuasive statement which is neither valid nor fallacious?

[ login to reply ] posted on Friday, May 27, 2022 12:49:56 PM
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Ed F writes:
[To John Best]

In order to say an argument is fallacious, there must be an argument.  An argument has one or more premises, with the claim that a conclusion follows from those premises.  A fallacy occurs when there is a problem with the reasoning in getting from the premise(s) to the conclusion.  So if we can't put the statements in the form of an argument with premise(s) and conclusion, then it doesn't;t make sense to talk about fallacies.

[ login to reply ] posted on Friday, May 27, 2022 12:57:48 PM
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John Best writes:
[To Ed F]

Agreed.   This is a strict logic forum, not a broader rhetorical one.

[ login to reply ] posted on Friday, May 27, 2022 01:06:54 PM
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skips777 writes:

This posted argument is a perfect example of how specially used propaganda results in ignorance. 

"Assault Weapon" has nothing to do with "use or power of the weapon", military or otherwise. There are hunting rifles that shoot more powerful bullets. An assault weapon is simply a rifle that has a pistol grip for the trigger hand. "Assault" merely scares or attempts to instill fear in people who have never educated themselves on types of rifles. 

posted on Saturday, May 28, 2022 04:29:37 AM

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Answers

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Arlo
2

I don't understand the post, so I'm not really able to answer.

1) I don't see an argument in the two statements.  The closest I can come is to assume (and that always gets one into trouble) that one person considers the right to keep and bear arms to include assault rifles and another person considers that assault rifles are not included in this particular right.  But nowhere is there a statement to that effect, moving forward on that assumption might or might not get us anywhere.

2) I don't see John's question in the post.  Again, the reader is left to make assumption about what's being asked ... something that can lead to non-productive (or at least interesting) answers and ensuing discussion.

It's sort of like the young child who asks, "Mommy, where did I come from?"  Thinking that the child was old enough for the whole story, the mother went into great detail about how Mommy and Daddy created the child.  Mommy then asked, "Did that answer your question?" to which the child responded, "Not really.  Today at school Tommy said he came from Alberta and I just wondered where I came from."

Meaningful answers and discussions need precisely defined terms and clear statements.

At best, I see implied opinions and no argument ... therefore, by definition, no fallacy.

answered on Saturday, May 28, 2022 10:22:20 AM by Arlo

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TrappedPrior (RotE) writes:

It's sort of like the young child who asks, "Mommy, where did I come from?"  Thinking that the child was old enough for the whole story, the mother went into great detail about how Mommy and Daddy created the child.  Mommy then asked, "Did that answer your question?" to which the child responded, "Not really.  Today at school Tommy said he came from Alberta and I just wondered where I came from."

This analogy is hilarious as it is elucidating. I'm going to start using it from now on, if you don't mind ;)

posted on Saturday, May 28, 2022 11:53:13 AM
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Arlo writes:
[To Rationalissimus of the Elenchus]

Go for it ... the copyright on it ran out a few years back!

[ login to reply ] posted on Saturday, May 28, 2022 12:05:49 PM
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TrappedPrior (RotE)
1

This is what I gathered from the OP and its replies:

Person 1: "I don't know why (Republicans) feel that the right to bear arms includes assault rifles in our society? Assault rifles are for military use."

Person 2: "Why do (Democrats) feel that the right to keep and bear arms doesn’t include so called assault rifles? Also, if these so called assault rifles are for military use, which national militaries use them?"

They're talking past each other. Person 1 doesn't clearly define what an "assault rifle" is, and Person 2 does not answer Person 1's question - or even try. 

I think that, if they slowed down and clarified their comments, they'd have a productive conversation...and it wouldn't end up in a post on a forum about logical fallacies.

(Speaking of fallacies - there aren't really any here, since no arguments were presented. At a push you could charge Person 1 with ambiguity fallacy, Person 2 with ignoratio elenchi and both of them with making sweeping generalisations about other parties, but you'd need to see more of an argument to fully establish that.)

answered on Saturday, May 28, 2022 09:17:02 AM by TrappedPrior (RotE)

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Trevor Folley
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The implicit argument appears to be,

Premise1: The stipulation that americans have the right to bear arms does not exclude any particular arms (i.e. all arms are included)

Premise 2: Assault rifles are included in the set 'all arms'

Conclusion: Americans have the right to bear assault rifles

answered on Saturday, May 28, 2022 10:59:03 AM by Trevor Folley

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