Question

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David Blomstrom

GMO VS Selective Breeding

I'm not sure if Neil deGrasse Tyson was the first to introduce this argument on behalf of Bill Gates, but his was the first argument I'm aware of. I recently saw a swarm of propagandists using the same argument on the Chinese social app RedNote.

The argument holds that selective breeding is essentially a type of GMO (genetically modified organisms). The implication is that there can't be anything wrong with GMO, since people have been practicing it for thousands of years.

This definition blatantly ignores some enormous differences. Selective breeding can be thought of as rearranging an organism's genes, while GMO may involve modifying the genes themselves. GMO requires laboratories. The GMO racket is owned and controlled by corporations and the super rich, who hire scientists to do their bioengineering. The people who practiced selective breeding thousands of years ago were more typically shepherds wearing sandals.

GMO is rife with corruption, not selective breeding.

What fallacy, if any, would you associate with Tyson's argument?

asked on Saturday, Mar 01, 2025 11:51:17 AM by David Blomstrom

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Answers

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Mr. Wednesday
2

I'm seeing fallacies on both sides here.

Choosing Neil deGrasse Tyson as the person to speak on GMOs could be argument from false authority . He's an astrophysicist, which is a field of science that's almost entirely unrelated to plant biology. So, beyond the basic scientific literacy that comes with being in a STEM field, his background gives him no special expertise in this field, but he's cultivated a reputation for being in expert in science, generally.

The comparison between selective breeding and genetic engineering would be a false equivalence . They are similar in that humans are, to some degree, controlling the genetic information inside another organism. However, selective breeding limits us to genetic information that already exists within the species, whereas genetic engineering allows us to introduce genetic information from other species. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, as this can introduce qualities like enhanced nutrition or disease resistance that wouldn't be available through selective breeding, but also glosses over risks that might be involved with making such a change.

One fallacy committed by both sides is saying that selective breeding is inherently good because it's been practiced for thousands of years, which is an appeal to tradition . Selective breeding is not without its problems. Some crops have been bred into monocultures that destroyed a lot of the natural variety that existed, and puts the crop at increased risk of being wiped out by disease. Selective breeding of dogs has led to breeds like pugs that have chronic breathing issues and are genetically predisposed to a lot of health problems.

Pointing out that genetic engineering requires laboratories, presumably as a way of demonstrating its inferiority, is an appeal to nature . It hinges on the idea that the unnatural setting makes it inherently worse without demonstrating why, but also doesn't address the fact that selective breeding, done at a high level, is also done in laboratory settings for better data collection and control.

Bringing up the wealth and corruption associated with the genetic engineering, I might consider that ad hominem (guilt by association) or possibly non sequitur . While those issues certainly exist with companies like Monsanto, having corrupt business practices does not necessarily mean their products are inherently unsafe. The two could be linked, but more evidence is needed to establish that. And, corruption and greed are issues that permeate pretty mich every industry, including agriculture with selectively bred crops. It's a known issue, for instance, that big agriculture has bred and engineered crops to suit their own interests, saturating the market with produce that maximizes yield and shelf life, often at the expense of qualities the consumer may find important like taste and texture.

There's also the issue of poisoning the well . The first paragraph asserts that Tyson is making the argument on behalf of Bill Gates, which would imply that he's being disingenuous and pushing an agenda, while tying him to negative ideas about Bill Gates. The bit about RedNote also makes an attempt to discredit the argument by linking it to Chinese propaganda. While Chinese propaganda certainly exists on RedNote, I honestly can't think of a reason that China would benefit from Americans seeing this message. That, and propaganda does tend to be a mix of truth and lies, so that doesn't necessarily discredit the argument being made.

answered on Saturday, Mar 01, 2025 03:55:02 PM by Mr. Wednesday

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AI Fallacy Master writes:
[To Mr. Wednesday] The student's response thoroughly addresses various fallacies and biases related to the arguments on GMOs and selective breeding, providing a well-rounded analysis.

1. **Argument from False Authority**: The student correctly identifies that Neil deGrasse Tyson might not have the specific expertise in plant biology required to be an authority on GMOs, suggesting the use of an argument from false authority. This is a valid point, though it should be noted that Tyson often discusses science from a general perspective, which might still hold some value in a broad public discourse.

2. **False Equivalence**: The student points out the false equivalence between selective breeding and genetic engineering. This is a solid observation since the processes and implications of selective breeding and GMO differ significantly, particularly regarding cross-species gene introduction in GMOs.

3. **Appeal to Tradition**: They identify the appeal to tradition on both sides—arguing that just because something has been done for a long time (like selective breeding) does not inherently make it good. This is a crucial point, as tradition alone doesn't validate a practice.

4. **Appeal to Nature**: The critique of lab-based GMO methods versus the 'natural' selective breeding is effectively identified as an appeal to nature fallacy. The 'natural' approach is not inherently superior, as the student correctly highlights.

5. **Guilt by Association/Non Sequitur**: The student recognizes the potential use of these fallacies in associating GMOs with corporate corruption. They rightly argue that corruption in an industry does not necessarily mean that the products of that industry are unsafe.

6. **Poisoning the Well**: The student identifies an attempt to discredit Neil deGrasse Tyson's argument by linking it to Bill Gates and Chinese propaganda. This is a nuanced observation of subtle rhetorical strategies that can bias the audience against a claim before it's properly considered.

Overall, the student's analysis is clear and reasoned, identifying logical fallacies and offering explanations that clarify their impact on the arguments presented.
posted on Saturday, Mar 01, 2025 03:55:15 PM
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David Blomstrom writes:

Nice analysis. Regarding RedNote, the propaganda was actually being broadcast by Americans who are apparently among the "TikTok Refugees."

Regarding Tyson, I have observed his thinly veiled propaganda in a number of articles and videos on a number of subjects. As far as I'm concerned, he is a fake scientists. He might be OK if he stuck to astrophysics, as you more or less implied.

posted on Saturday, Mar 01, 2025 04:01:39 PM
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AI Fallacy Master
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The argument presented in favor of GMO by equating it to selective breeding contains an equivocation fallacy, where the term "genetically modified organisms" is used in a context that includes both traditional selective breeding and modern laboratory-based genetic engineering. While both processes do result in changed genetic features of organisms, the methods and scale on which changes occur are significantly different.

1. **Equivocation Fallacy**: The argument conflates different meanings of "genetic modification" by implying that the natural and gradual process of selective breeding is the same as the direct, more rapid genetic changes achieved through modern genetic engineering.

2. **Appeal to Tradition**: The argument implies that because selective breeding has been practiced for thousands of years without issue, GMO, being "essentially" the same, should also not be problematic. This fails to acknowledge critical differences in technique and scale, as well as different potential risks and benefits.

3. **False Equivalence**: There is an oversimplification in equating selective breeding and GMOs because it ignores key differences, such as the technological involvement, the type of genetic changes made, and the socio-economic structures behind them. Selective breeding generally operates under natural mechanisms and constraints, whereas GMOs can involve the precise insertion or deletion of genes across different species through laboratory manipulation.

4. **Ad Hominem Fallacy**: The argument introduces unrelated issues, such as the ownership of GMO technologies by corporations or the comparison between modern scientists and ancient shepherds, to create a negative perception of GMOs without directly addressing the core scientific aspects of the process.

In discussing GMOs, it's crucial to focus on the specific scientific, ethical, and socio-economic aspects rather than relying on oversimplified comparisons to selective breeding. Each aspect must be considered on its own merits and risks.
answered on Saturday, Mar 01, 2025 11:51:30 AM by AI Fallacy Master

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David Blomstrom writes:

I upvoted your answer, but I disagree on #4. The people behind the process are hardly irrelevant. If we went back in time 10,000 years to shepherds wearing sandals, there would be no GMO. Conversely, corrupt entities like Bill Gates and Monsanto could make intelligent people leery even of such normally good, or at least acceptable, things as selective breeding and vaccines.

posted on Saturday, Mar 01, 2025 11:55:09 AM
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TrappedPrior (RotE) writes:
[To David Blomstrom]

That's a bot BTW. 

[ login to reply ] posted on Tuesday, Mar 04, 2025 02:33:33 PM
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David Blomstrom writes:
[To TrappedPrior (RotE)]

Yes. It's scary how quickly and accurately bots reply, whether they're being honest or deceptive. Interesting thing: You can discuss topics that are taboo in the U.S. (e.g. just about anything related to Jews or Adolf Hitler) on the Chinese app RedNote. However, ask ChatGPT a question about those things, and it goes into bald-faced liar mode. Funny thing is, the Chinese AI app DeepSeek does the same thing.

[ login to reply ] posted on Tuesday, Mar 04, 2025 03:36:16 PM
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TrappedPrior (RotE) writes:
[To David Blomstrom]

Yeah there's been some..."fortification" going on with ChatGPT. I'm trying it now and it's hilarious watching it give politically correct responses. Lol

[ login to reply ] posted on Thursday, Mar 06, 2025 11:35:39 AM