Question

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What fallacy is being committed here?

From a creationist : (speaking of abiogenesis and evolution)

"Despite the mathematical improbability of such a thing happening, evolutionists fallaciously cling to the position that if a thing is POSSIBLE to have happened that it DID and DOES happen in the area of biology."

asked on Friday, Apr 15, 2022 12:08:08 PM by

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Answers

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Ed F
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I think this is simply a false premise.

Evolutionists don't claim evolution is true because it is possible; they claim evolution is true because using the scientific method, there is substantial evidence that it is true.

answered on Friday, Apr 15, 2022 12:12:02 PM by Ed F

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TrappedPrior (RotE) writes:

I agree that they're confused on the claim (evolution is not accepted because it's possible but because the evidence supports it).

Wouldn't this count as a strawman though, as Dr Bo points out?

posted on Friday, Apr 15, 2022 06:34:27 PM
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Ed F writes:

[To Rationalissimus of the Elenchus]

Just want to make sure I understand the Strawman argument.  

There's substantial scientific evidence for evolution but not for abiogenesis; so attacking abiogenesis is used as a Strawman to avoid having to address the evidence for evolution.

I assume that's what Dr. Bo meant; if that's the Strawman argument, it makes sense and I would agree.

[ login to reply ] posted on Friday, Apr 15, 2022 06:53:18 PM
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Colin P writes:

Ed, I submit respectfully that you're using the phrase "scientific method" as a bit of a magic wand.  @Bo, have you defined the scientific method anywhere on your website, or have you linked to a page elsewhere that defines it, so that people answering or commenting can link to it? 

posted on Monday, May 02, 2022 01:59:28 PM
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Ed F writes:
[To Colin P]

The Scientific Method basically consists of developing a hypothesis about some phenomenon in the real world, and then determining (with experiments or mathematics) whether that hypothesis can be falsified.  If it can be falsified, then the hypothesis will need to be tweaked or replaced with a new hypothesis altogether.  For example, the steady state theory (the stars stay in place) was believed to be true from the beginning of time until about a century ago when observations of the stars showed that the universe was expanding--which led to the Big Bang theory.   Since then the Big Bang theory has been reformulated numerous times due to advances in observations and theoretical formulations.  One article that discusses the Scientific Method is here: https://www.simplypsychology.org/Karl-Popper.html.    

Obviously there are innumerable discussions about it and different theories about good Scientific Method. 

[ login to reply ] posted on Monday, May 02, 2022 03:45:22 PM
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Bo Bennett, PhD
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Despite the mathematical improbability of such a thing happening...

Creationists fail to compare this to the "mathematical improbability" of magic from a god.

evolutionists fallaciously cling to the position

This is most likely a strawman fallacy because the implication is that evolution is being accepted "fallaciously" or unreasonable, without knowing why evolution is accepted—assuming we are talking about evolution here and not abiogenesis.

The creationist is also conflating abiogenesis with evolution, which is common. Again, might be a strawman because they are assuming the evolutionist also subscribes to abiogenesis—possibly with the same conviction they accept evolution.

While speaking of math... we have billions of examples of things that happened naturally, and exactly zero examples of things that happened supernaturally (i.e., by magic), so preferring abiogenesis to magic is more than reasonable.

fallaciously cling to the position that if a thing is POSSIBLE to have happened that it DID and DOES happen

Again, almost certainly a strawman. While there may be some people out there that accept abiogenesis or evolution primarily based on the appeal to possibility , I doubt this at all common.

answered on Friday, Apr 15, 2022 02:46:16 PM by Bo Bennett, PhD

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Colin P writes:

exactly zero examples of things that happened supernaturally

@Bo, I see that you continue to discount the historical record. Presumably you would happily put historians out of a job!

posted on Monday, May 02, 2022 02:04:15 PM
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Bo Bennett, PhD writes:
[To Colin P]

There is no supernatural event in the historical record." Scientists today can't even demonstrate the supernatural, let alone people from 2000 years ago who claim magic for virtually everything, in an age before scientific understand of the natural world and laws. What we have is people who claim magic because they don't have any other explanation ( argument from ignorance ), or in the case of religions, people who apply "faith". No, it is not in the "historical record" that "God resurrected Jesus" just like it is not in the "historical record" that Muhammad flew away on a winged horse. These are declarations of faith, not examples of the supernatural.

[ login to reply ] posted on Monday, May 02, 2022 06:04:28 PM
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Colin P writes:
[To Bo Bennett, PhD]

Luke's record is an historical record. Rigorous skepticism is open to ideas and it's able to investigate. It can ponder Luke's description of Jesus' visit to Jerusalem when he was 12 years old, when others were amazed at his understanding. It can think about what it meant for Jesus to give his body, as per Luke's description of things said during the last supper that Jesus ate with his followers. It can consider Luke's record of Jesus' death on a Roman cross, and resurrection from a rock hewn tomb.

[ login to reply ] posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2022 08:05:41 PM
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Dr. Richard
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How did life start is a recurring question. The mystics of whatever denomination claim some god or other did it. The scientists, though, I thought had well settled the question by Stanley L. Miller and Harold C. Urey in the 1950s. Of course, a few scientists contradicted that the gases used by Miller and Urey are not as abundant as shown in the experiment, but I found that to be a weak criticism. 

A premise in the question here is: “Despite the mathematical improbability ...” That is a false, or at the very least an unsubstantiated, premise. Before one can hold that as a premise, one must establish that there is a mathematical improbability — a point I think Sagan and Dawkins would argue is untrue. 

answered on Saturday, Apr 16, 2022 09:02:29 AM by Dr. Richard

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rx7man writes:

I remember reading a book from Leconte de Nuey (spelling?) about the mathematical improbability of even just a protein getting formed by random chance in the universe.  I can't remember the details, it's been decades since I read it, but I think it wouldn't account for the non-homogeneity of the earth, or universe... If you have some reaction that requires water, all the rock in the world is irrelevant, while if you need some other element, perhaps in rock is where you'd find it plentifully, and by chance you need both, the intersection between the two you might find it quite likely to react (lets say to create an amino acid), and if amino acids are plentiful, then proteins become much more likely

posted on Sunday, Apr 17, 2022 08:27:41 PM