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Alex

Circular reasoning? I’m confused!

Ok so I’m a little confused about this.

 

Suppose someone says that “the Quran is so beautifully composed and heart-penetrating that it’s inimitable. It must be the true word of God” but then I ask that person, “but can you prove your theory and explanation about its beauty?” and he says, “What do you mean? Its beautiness and inimitablity IS literally the proof! Otherwise there would be no such thing as evidence because then we would have to discard that fossils are evidence for ancient species because well there is a possibility that aliens planted it and so it would be circular reasoning for every conceivable evidence ever. See the problem?”

 

What do you think? 

asked on Friday, Dec 24, 2021 06:16:06 PM by Alex

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Answers

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TrappedPrior (RotE)
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Just because a text is considered beautifully composed, doesn't mean it must be the word of God. This is a non sequitur

The rest of the person's justification falls apart as soon as we question the inference that beautiful design necessitates the involvement of God.

answered on Friday, Dec 24, 2021 08:29:09 PM by TrappedPrior (RotE)

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Alex writes:

Right. But what about the inimitability? Also, what about the fossils part? For example, the person may say that aliens merely planted it and therefore doesn’t imply any ancient species since it’s a possible explanation that will make inferring the presence of ancient species just circular reasoning. 

I understand if my point is also confusing lol

posted on Saturday, Dec 25, 2021 04:54:29 AM
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Dr. Richard
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Again, this is a burden of proof issue.

When people are in a discussion, and one presents a proposition, unless it is one already agreed upon, the propounder carries the burden of proof to substantiate the proposition. This rule of logic has been around since Aristotle, or maybe Thales. 

I think it is obvious that unless one has evidence to believe something, there is no basis upon which to believe it. Hitchens’s razor puts it, “what may be asserted without evidence, may be dismissed without evidence.” Carl Sagan added what has become the Sagan standard: “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.”

So, when someone presents a proposition but no evidence, the proper response is not to believe it, point out the lack of evidence for the proposition, and ask the propounder to provide some evidence.

If evidence is forthcoming, then the burden of proof shifts to you. You can accept the evidence or, if you do not find the evidence convincing, it is your burden to explain why.

Don't get ahead of yourself in the discussion. 

 

 

answered on Saturday, Dec 25, 2021 10:26:22 AM by Dr. Richard

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Alex writes:

Dr. Richard I think you misunderstood

 

My whole issue is simply how a fact is explained. Let me try to simplify it to you. “The supernatural is true because this fact here cannot better be explained in any other way so this explanation must be true” When I point out that this still needs to be proved, the person then says, “then there would be no such thing as evidence. There would be no big bang, evolution, or anything that is demonstrated by the BEST explanation.”

And that’s where I’m confused. Maybe this is conflicting two different things? Or p erhaps you think it’s an argument from ignorance? It’s just clarification that I want.

 

Thank you

posted on Saturday, Dec 25, 2021 10:38:38 AM
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Dr. Richard writes:
[To Alex]

Sorry, I misunderstood your question. Yes, what you are describing the Argument from Ignorance (appeal to ignorance, argumentum ad ignorantiam), which assumes a claim is true (or false) because it has not been proven false (true) or cannot be proven false (true).

Note also the Fallacy of diversion (when you have no answer to the topic at hand, you divert the discussion to something more comfortable) in that he is attempting to divert the discussion to the definition of evidence and of what constitutes evidence. That is okay. Get the definition of evidence agreed upon, then move back to your original discussion where he bears the burden of adducing evidence and ask for the evidence.

 

[ login to reply ] posted on Saturday, Dec 25, 2021 11:39:24 AM
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GoblinCookie
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The basic problem with the argument is that the Quran's beauty is subjective, not an objective fact while the Quran makes objective claims about the universe.  I don't think you can logically derive truth-claims from subjective preferences, you can't argue 'I like icecream therefore the tastiness of icecream is an objective truth of the universe'.

Objective claims require an objective basis I think.

answered on Sunday, Dec 26, 2021 06:42:38 PM by GoblinCookie

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